[m__]

> Facebook has bases, and operates, in Europe. Thus they MUST abide by our data laws.

Why? One might argue that European laws MUST be changed. Pointing to laws is hardly a moral argument, there are tons of terrible laws and facebook might as well be a victim of one of them.

[ltamake]

It's not about morals, it's about the law as it is right now. And the truth is that Facebook is breaking our laws and need to be prosecuted for such.

As for your argument, why is that a terrible law? Why is it bad that users have a right to know what companies have on them? To be honest, I think it's a pretty bloody great law.

Facebook is a victim of itself. If it didn't track users in the first place, it wouldn't be in hot water.

[m__]

> It's not about morals, it's about the law as it is right now. Depends on the discussion. I doubt anybody claims that the laws don't obligate facebook to make the data available, because they do. What people argue is that said laws are bad.

> And the truth is that Facebook is breaking our laws and need to be prosecuted for such. That's what we are having an argument about. I agree that they are breaking our laws, but I don't think that they should be prosecuted. I think the laws should be changed instead, because they are bad.

> Why is it bad that users have a right to know what companies have on them? Because it isn't the state's business what customers and companies agree with each other. If facebook states in its contracts with their customers that they will make this data available then they should be prosecuted for breach of contract if they don't.

I'm against the state (or the EU or whoever) making laws that deal with private matters because lawmakers are notoriously bad at thinking things through. This leads to a bunch of unintended consequences and ultimately is bad for both customers and companies and anybody else. E.g.: copyright laws, patent laws, immigration laws, drug laws etc...

Actually, they aren't bad at thinking things through, it is impossible to think things through. http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1...

> Facebook is a victim of itself. If it didn't track users in the first place, it wouldn't be in hot water.

I don't want to defend facebook. Maybe what they do is bad, I'm sure that's an interesting discussion, I really don't know. What I'm saying is: Even if what they are doing IS bad, then the state still shouldn't intervene if they don't breach the contracts with their customers. Facebook doesn't force you to use their services, and if you do so voluntarily then it's on facebook's terms, though luck.

[ltamake]

> Facebook doesn't force you to use their services, and if you do so voluntarily then it's on facebook's terms, though luck.

WRONG! Think about all the sites that have Like buttons. Facebook never showed me a form or a checkbox to use that, did they? Yet they're gathering information on the sites I go to and setting up "shadow profiles" (as europe-v-facebook put them).

You're right, Facebook doesn't make me use Facebook -- they're trying to force me to.

And sure, I can just use hosts to block the Facebook site, but I shouldn't have to do that just to stop them from tracking me.

[jritch]

Why would a country change their laws to suit a company? (not even from Europe)? When Europeans go to america do they not have to follow the laws of that land?

As a European I feel that I should have access to any information a company holds on me.....both MORALLY and legally...

[m__]

As a European I don't feel this way. Unless you have a contract with a company that states you such rights, that is...

If you give up information voluntarily (even if you aren't aware of it) why should it obligate anybody who collects it to spend resources on informing you what they know about you? Morally, why does gathering information imply obligation to provide certain information? This is a total non-sequitur.

[jritch]

The reason this should be done as it is the law, pure and simple. I, by law, have the right to know what information/data a company holds on me. If they wish to collect data in the first place, and are a reputable company, they should be well aware of the "obligations" they have before then even start collecting it.......Why do they want my information? What do they plan on doing with it? Could it then end up in the hands of anyone who could do with it as they please?

Much the same way i wouldnt want to be contacted/emailed/telephoned/written to by companies i have in no way solicited to contact me....