[PragmaticPulp]

> Keep in mind this attitude makes total sense to hardware engineers.

> The hardware business is...

> Let's just say that the difficulties you face definitely exist for hardware engineers.

I’ve worked in hardware and I’ve worked with multiple Korean CMs and I’m still struggling to understand what you’re trying to say. I don’t agree that this makes “total sense”.

Instead of being intentionally vague, can you please just describe what you’re trying to explain without the “Let’s just say…” and other totally unnecessary secrecy? This entire thread is about how toxic and unproductive it is when people use unnecessary secrecy and vagueness, so it’s kind of ironic to read comments using unnecessary vagueness.

[esrauch]

I don't see the comment you replied to as being that vague: that are claiming that the information asymmetry with the hardware manufacturers/suppliers (including Samsung) in terms of things like price negotiations and "what's the next big thing" is more valuable than the downsides of internal engineer productivity.

[adastra22]

Maybe? They didn’t claim anything at all. I didn’t see anything in that comment about price negotiations. Frankly I’m as confused as the grandparent as to what was being said.

[urthor]

I'd say the reason I was keeping it ambiguous is that I wasn't really making a point about hardware or price negotiations specifically. I'm not a hardware person at all.

I was maybe close to making a point that with supply chains, there's many reasons that might justify that kind of secrecy.

Really I just want to create empathy about non-software engineering reasons for secrecy.

Not ram home a particular hypothesis about a corporation I've never worked for. I have a habit of thinking from the perspective of corporate titans.

re: price negotiations which is my jam (3-D Negotiation and Never Split the Difference are excellent bedtime reading).

Keep in mind secrecy is often not JUST about withholding information to negotiate the best price. Sometimes the information is something the other person in the negotiation would also like you to keep secret.

[ClumsyPilot]

' I have a habit of thinking from the perspective of corporate titans.'

Thats sounds a bit presumtious, have you ever validated how accurate that perspective is? Maybe the perspective you imagine is totally different from reality.

[urthor]

Well I don't think I'm right haha. I haven't met these people and asked them exactly what they were thinking.

But I honestly think we're very biased towards assuming our senior corporate leaders are foolish and misguided.

Saying "assuming a corporation made a smart decision, why did xxx make that decision?" is usually a very fruitful line of thought.

[lapcat]

> I honestly think we're very biased towards assuming our senior corporate leaders are foolish and misguided.

I honestly think we're very biased towards assuming our senior corporate leaders are gods and not fallible mortals.

All humans make mistakes. Very bad mistakes. Even very smart people. Depending on circumstances and level of power, some people suffer the consequences of their mistakes, and others don't.

One common mistake of leaders is to surround themselves with "yes men" who never criticize them or tell them the truth. Leaders can become very detached from reality, but their power allows them to survive and even thrive in a state of reality detachment. And these leaders always have people who will defend them no matter what and paint them as infallible geniuses because of their power, which is part of what contributes to never suffering the consequences of mistakes.

[ClumsyPilot]

> corporate leaders are foolish and misguided.

> corporation made a smart decision

The bankers who traded subprime mortgages and fucked off with their gains made an excellent decision. The corporations didn't, because they are not real, they don't make decisions.

Just because something is in the interest of a senior leader, does not mean it's in the interest of the whole company.

[mmcnl]

I totally didn't get that all. But could be me.

[RicoElectrico]

Seems like very Tim Cook thing to do. But the cost on innovation... doesn't really matter to him.

[deanCommie]

The "open secret factoid" that OP is dancing around is that Samsung makes screens for iPhones, and is also obviously Apple's biggest competitor as the default "Premiere Android phone" brand.

I don't really see what this detail has to do with OP's point about hardware engineer logic/gang of four/etc

[baybal2]

I regularly work for companies working for Apple, have a number of ex-coworkers who worked, or went to work to Apple.

Lose tongues are everywhere, and Apple can't seem to keep anything secret in its China RnD unit.

Shenzhen is a city of 17M on the paper, but very few people are working in Hardware now. It's a very small industry. I feel I know more than half of all companies on somebody's resume. Most of 30-40 years olds in the industry were already working for 10+ years.

Btw Most of AirPods RnD was done in China, not California.

I would also add that hardware unit side in Apple is said to be very conservative, and a mirror image of their software team. At least in China, they hold a lifelong negative score system, where -30 is you are out under any conditions, and 15 minutes late counts as -3. They also use USB sticks to move files around, and work on offline computers to prevent leaks. Also, WinXP everywhere.