[1048576]

None of this addresses the real reasons why it's hard to get hired after 50 (actually, it starts in the mid-30s). It's not that older people are always at technology (they aren't) or that young workers don't want them around (they do). It's that bosses assume that anyone who isn't one of them by a certain age is either embittered or was anti-authoritarian from the start. Which isn't false.

To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+ and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions. (I mean, there could be—often are—a million reasons why an excellent person's career might go sideways, but bosses aren't usually the forgiving type. They still want to believe the system works, because they are the system.)

Bosses want to feel young again, but they also know that workplace subordination is humiliating and that older people are likely to have figured this fact out, while young people still think they're going to be invited to join the execs within 3 years (which the vast majority of them won't).

[brian_cunnie]

> ... they're still in the running for subordinate positions

I think that statement does a disservice to being a software engineer, and is off the mark as well.

At my company (VMware), I know at least one Senior Director and three other Directors (Matthew K., David S., Rajan A., and Ryan R.)who abdicated their managerial role in favor of being an individual contributor for the simple reason that it was much more enjoyable, not because they're "embittered" or "anti-authoritarian".

For a more high-profile example, Mitch Hashimoto of Hashicorp went back to being an indicvidual contributor.

And, on a personal note, I'm 58 & I love engineering — it's fun. I like software, and I'm happy being a developer. I don't think I'd enjoy being a manager, and am not interested in finding out.

[jeffbee]

We are very lucky to be in an industry where being a manager is recognized as a different job instead of a superior promotion from individual contributor. There still are, of course, software companies that expect to promote ICs to managers, but in this job market you can simply leave those companies.

[kevinpet]

I think we're getting there. One big reason everyone assumes tech workers are all young is because tech has been growing so rapidly. I expect to be one of the old farts in a few years because it's still growing. The next generation might find that they have a more mixed workforce, where when they come into a company most of their coworkers are substantially older than them, as most office jobs were for most people for most of history.

[kodah]

> To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+ and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions. (I mean, there could be—often are—a million reasons why an excellent person's career might go sideways, but bosses aren't usually the forgiving type. They still want to believe the system works, because they are the system.)

Actually, you're engaging in the bias right now. I don't ever plan on getting out of IC/Engineering. Stop assuming that's something everyone wants to do.

[bestouff]

I did it already ("because of my expérience" it was presented to me as the natural way forward). Had to fire someone, lost my sleep for a few days because of that. Back to engineering roles which I enjoy much more anyway

[steelframe]

I've had to separate a couple of people from the company. In both cases they very quickly found another job, and on following up with them they were much happier doing something that looks quite different from what they were trying to do before.

The world is big, and the chances that you happen to be in the optimal role at the optimal company are vanishingly small. In my book, a category of management failure is letting someone doggedly clutch on to something that's hard on both themselves and those around them.

[kodah]

Sorry you had to deal with that, but I'm glad you're back in the pilots seat!

[stemlord]

But isn't being the boss often a significantly different discipline? My boss deals with politics, business strategy and resource coordination. I deal with concrete engineering/design challenges. Sure there's overlap between what we do but it should be clear that not everyone would want to transition from one to the other.

[QuarterReptile]

Basically the answer to your question is that too little of any problem is engineering to justify someone experienced remaining as just an engineer. As you get more senior, you should be knowledgeable and experienced enough to be able to coordinate the efforts of other engineers and mentor (or facilitate mentoring of) junior members of the team. And you should be able to cooperate (or battle) with other sections of your organization for resources and to convey progress on your projects.

Everyone would like the person doing the above to be someone intimately familiar with and good at the work they're managing, or else everyone is pointy haired boss and we all have to complain about how MBAs are ruining our lives...

[greenyoda]

> As you get more senior, you should be knowledgeable and experienced enough to be able to coordinate the efforts of other engineers and mentor (or facilitate mentoring of) junior members of the team. And you should be able to cooperate (or battle) with other sections of your organization for resources and to convey progress on your projects.

I agree that those tasks are important, but none of them require being a manager who is formally someone's boss (hires, fires, does performance reviews, deals with HR issues, etc.). I didn't like being peoples' boss, so I stepped down from my management job years ago to become a developer again. But as a very senior developer, I've done all of those other things (mentoring, coordination, cooperation, etc.).

[onionisafruit]

Just because you have the ability to do all those things you listed doesn’t mean you need to do them. It’s a valid choice to continue the relatively lower stress job of a software engineer.

[QuarterReptile]

You would need to define an invalid choice before such a discussion could proceed.

[rufus_foreman]

>> they're still in the running for subordinate positions

Old man, over 50. I still write code. Still getting paid. It's not a subordinate position. It's my thing that I do.

[rendall]

> ...have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions...

This is a really weird take. It's not harder to get hired as a manager somewhere than it is as a SWE. Different skill-sets.

[ushakov]

maybe it’s because older people tend to have more leverage, options and paid mortgage/debts?

unlike younger people who don’t and thus are more vulnerable to corporate exploitation

just a theory

[JackFr]

> To be honest, the old people who are obviously fading might be an easier sell to bosses than the ones who are 50, 60, 70+ and still rock solid, because with them, you really have to wonder what went wrong that they're still in the running for subordinate positions.

Honestly that’s why a lot of people do consulting gigs. It’s a lot easier to say it was a choice than to explain how you’re a 54 year old AVP.

[current_thing]

Not sure why corporate drones like you visit hacker news. Why not go start middle-management-cop out news and take your office-worker-class opinions with you?

[oblio]

Most of HN is corporate drones...