[robinsoh]

> Seems like we're still a long way off from reasonably priced large e-ink displays -- very curious to see any progress in this space

"reasonably priced"? It will always be more expensive than LCD/OLED because the volumes are completely different, like 1000x different.

[Kuinox]

The volumes are different because the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech. There are tons of applications of low power screen. It could even outweighs the OLED in term of volume.

Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. Add color to it and it's the perfect screen for a lot of computer work.

[varenc]

Awhile back the Founder of Visionect refuted this idea that patents are holding things back on hacker news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067824

My personal take: E-Ink screens have too many drawbacks for 99% of consumers to be at all interested in them.

[jessriedel]

That comment doesn't really have any evidence beyond the fact that it's the opinion of the founder of Visionect, it just makes assertions, so I wouldn't say "refuted".

Color e-ink has a killer app: Changeable photo display in homes. This is much harder to achieve with alternative technologies (any display emitting light is an immediate no-go for just hanging on your wall). In contrast, e-readers have a significantly smaller advantage over the alternative of just reading on your phone or tablet, yet that seems to have been enough of a market for them to become cheap. And unlike e-readers, where you only really need one per person, there is hardly any limit to the number of displays people would put in their home if they do not emit light, have nice UI, and are cheap.

[bee_rider]

Is that really a killer market, though?

People have tried changeable photo displays before, with LCD or whatever. Of course, these require more power, but they are plugged in devices and I'm not convinced non-technical people think about the power consumption of their devices outside of really niche situation where everyone knows they supposed to care (large appliances like washing machines). And, even the best e-ink screen looks kind of washed out when displaying color, right?

Like I'm all in for an E-ink terminal, latency be damned, if someone make a no-fuss one for less than a couple hundred dollars. But I can't imagine wanting an E-ink picture frame over (say) an OLED one (although I guess burn in would be a problem there).

[quirkot]

Think bigger. Not photo display like "pictures on the end table"... photo display like "teenager has band posters on the wall" or even like "changing the wallpaper on my actual wall to match the new pintrest trend"

[jessriedel]

Having used one, I can say that changeable photo displays with LCDs, OLED, or anything emitting light is a non-starter. It lights up the whole room (think about what happens when you turn off the lights!) and just doesn't feel at all like you're looking at a printed out photo.

I haven't seen a color e-ink display in person so I can't speak confidently, but the demo videos don't look washed out to me.

[cmrdporcupine]

For black and white photos / etchings, etc. I can see it. But yeah, the colour will always look washed out, like older newsprint.

I too would really dig an e-ink terminal. Just needs to do VT-100 sequences and let me run Emacs. But I think it's likely a niche product.

[eli]

"Why aren't prices of large eink panels cheaper?" is a question that can only be answered with opinions until someone actually does it.

Seems like the opinion of someone actually in the business of selling large eink panels should count for a lot more than speculation by an outsider.

Visionect sells some eInk signs for showing the status of meeting and conference rooms. I thought that was a clever application -- saves companies from having to run wires and mount a bunch of hardware.

Color photo displays could be cool, but I suspect it'd be hard to compete with the incredibly cheap Google Home and Alexa devices with screens.

[kortilla]

> Seems like the opinion of someone actually in the business of selling large eink panels should count for a lot more than speculation by an outsider.

Not really. That particular person’s entire business depends on eink being a high margin business product.

[robinsoh]

> Not really. That particular person’s entire business depends on eink being a high margin business product.

That claim doesn't seem to be very reasonable to me. Why would Visionect want eink to be a "high margin business product"? A Visionect panel is not a Veblen good as far as I can understand. Could you share your evidence for why you would think that?

[eli]

High cost isn't the same as high margin. If patent fees were a significant expense it'd be in their interest to say so even if the margins were already high (which I very much doubt)

[varenc]

His first comment says the opposite and that they've tried hard to get the price down. Of course we have to trust him on that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25063726#25067359

But I can’t really find any other large format e-ink displays with the driving hardware (which can be even pricier than the display), so I’m inclined to believe him.

[jessriedel]

> Seems like the opinion of someone actually in the business of selling large eink panels should count for a lot more than speculation by an outsider.

I agree it's certainly more authoritative than a random person (that's why I said "beyond"), but it's still just one man and we still don't know his incentives well.

[robinsoh]

> Awhile back the Founder of Visionect refuted this idea that patents are holding things back on hacker news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067824

Thank you for providing the link. I agree in general with that opinion as well.

[pjerem]

> Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen.

I'm genuinely interested, are you talking about Onyxboox Mira or Dasung ? Because i thought that they manufactured official e-ink patented products

[Kuinox]

I was talking about Dasung. Dasung respect the patents? My bad then, I've read somewhere they were not.

[AlanYx]

Dasung panels are properly licensed from eInk Corp. They (Dasung) actually have a couple patents of their own on their e-ink driver board tech, which drives the panels. If you're searching a patent database, search for "Beijing Dasung".

[EGreg]

Which companies in China?

Can they produce large format screens, like a few feet on each side?

Or do we have to buy small ones and tile them? We probably can’t tile them as they need electronics around each border.

I want to do e-paintings. So if you tell me which Chinese companies, ie their websites, I would try to reach out !

[robinsoh]

> The volumes are different because the technology is locked by a company that doesn't innovate nor mass produce their tech.

Citation needed. I'd love to see some evidence backing up your incredibly confident claim.

> Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. Add color to it and it's the perfect screen for a lot of computer work.

I've never heard of that. Please share some evidence for this please. 20 fps electrophoresis? In my opinion, that's physically impossible unless the screen is 0.1mm thick. How did they escape Q = vA ?

[dalbasal]

"Citation needed" is not a nice quip. You're responding to a forum comment, not reviewing a paper.

It's fine to be dubious of a claim, and it's fine to ask politely for sources or rationales. Just be nice.

[robinsoh]

> It's fine to be dubious of a claim, and it's fine to ask politely for sources or rationales. Just be nice.

I was not aware that "citation needed" is considered impolite. It is something I use at work a lot when interacting with colleagues. My apologies, I'll refrain from that in future.

[vanattab]

I would be willing to bet your colleagues at work would find it annoying and impolite too.

[robinsoh]

Perhaps it is a difference in 'climate' between working in a science based industry where we often get challenged on our data versus software development industry. Maybe I've spent too long in academia where 'citation needed' is an indicator of interest in my topic and considered a good thing.

[scratcheee]

I disagree, it is in fact a very polite and fair minded way to respond to claim you find dubious. If anything they were being more polite than later in the comment when they suggested the claimed results should be impossible (though that's still a reasonable claim to make if they beleive it to be true).

Rather than saying the equivalent to "I think this cannot be true", a request for citation merely means "I am interested in this claim and would like to know the source" (even if phrased more tersely). The content is more indicative of the intent than the phrasing, and requesting a citation is not an accusation at all, it is a request for a source for further research.

[dalbasal]

>>it is in fact a very polite and fair minded way to respond to claim you find dubious.

Citation needed.

[endisneigh]

I didn’t consider citation needed to be a “mean” thing to say.

[greysonp]

I assume they're referring to Onyx and Dasung[1]. Not sure if it's actually 20fps (videos I've found look to be more in the low teens by my eye), and I believe they're making a lot of trade-offs around ghosting and stuff to achieve those frame rates. Also no idea what their licensing situation is.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRvlJ2HjH30

[ThrowawayR2]

E-Ink lists Dasung's monitor as one of their showcase products so that supposition is incorrect: https://www.eink.com/Laptop-Peripherals.html?type=applicatio...

[Kuinox]

https://youtu.be/RRvlJ2HjH30?t=250

[robinsoh]

Yes, that's a Dasung Paperlite. That's a regular E-Ink screen from the same manufacturer, not as you wrote "Some companies in China, that ignore the patents, manage to produce 20 fps 23" eink screen. ".

That's not 20 fps. That's A2 mode which is a 1 bit mode and is a non-stable state so it will decay. I'd recommend you read the user manual about how that works.

[mdp2021]

A2 should be 8fps, 125ms.

How does the 'Q = vA' law you mention apply, to reason on an example, to the case of A2, as a limiter to the rate?

> A2 mode which is a 1 bit mode and is a non-stable state so it will decay

It makes little sense to use A2 on a long-lasting render - nonetheless, I suppose the decay time will be relatively long (I have never notice an A2 dot change state...).

[fortran77]

This is an old trope on Hacker News, as predictable as "have you tried re-writing it in Rust." But there's little evidence it's true.

[jokowueu]

I don't think he is saying patents are bad. But the company it's self is .

[robinsoh]

> But the company it's self is .

and it would be lovely if he could share what leads him to believe that.

[Kuinox]

Did I hurt you personally for you to be so toxic with me ? Chill.

[ThrowawayR2]

There has been no evidence presented whatsoever for the assertion that e-Ink has been abusing their IP other than one post from a throwaway account on HN a couple of years ago. No corroborating news articles about lawsuits, which the post alleged; no filings about acquisitions, which the post alleged; nothing. But somehow HN posters have adopted that as the truth?

[robinsoh]

> Did I hurt you personally for you to be so toxic with me ? Chill.

I'm sorry you feel that way, however challenging your incredible claims and asking that you provide some evidence before we believe you is not the same "be so toxic with me".

[m-p-3]

If the tech becomes attractice enough (high visibility in direct sunlight, lower power consumption, etc), maybe we'll see more public advertisers switch to them for digital signage, significantly increasing the demand and volume.

One can dream..

[rory096]

The transit stop use case really does seem to be ramping up, including the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority currently adding them to most surface Green Line stops: https://www.mbta.com/projects/solar-powered-e-ink-signs

Transit was one of the two core practical applications the Visionect founder mentioned in Nov 2020: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359

[m-p-3]

Interesting. Now I'm curious about the tech used behind it to transmit the info accross the network. I'm wondering if a LoRa/LoRaWAN-based mesh network could do the trick to avoid using some kind of cell data or wired infrastructure, but also be energy-efficient enough to work using only solar power.

[Melatonic]

Aren't all e-ink displays highly visible in direct sunlight? You need exterior to even use them in the first place

[m-p-3]

I meant compared to traditional displays.

[Melatonic]

E-Ink is a ton more visible in direct sunlight compared to traditional displays?

[m-p-3]

Quite a bit more.

https://i.imgur.com/Z36BcCn.jpg

[robinsoh]

> One can dream..

Of faster than light travel? :-) They're limited by the physics of electrophoresis.

[m-p-3]

I mean there's other ways than refresh rate where there can be improvement, especially on color eInk displays. They managed to increase the DPI on this version after all :)

[mdp2021]

«Reasonably priced» very probably just meant "a price closer to their individual potential buyers' attributed value". That «LCD/OLED» will be cheaper does not affect that.

[jonplackett]

Surely if it’s much cheaper volumes also go up massively…

[robinsoh]

> Surely if it’s much cheaper volumes also go up massively…

No, that's not true. If you're making a black and white screen, and you sell it at the same price as a color screen, nobody will buy it. Volumes won't change if your product isn't better than something equivalently priced.

[dotancohen]

But the E-ink screen is much better in the regards that software developers want. Colour is not necessarily one of those regards.

[mdp2021]

Either this makes little sense, or it is (or may be) unclear. «Your product [must be] better than something equivalently priced» /and that performs the same function/. Now we are talking about large bistable colour displays - which have no competition.

[thrown12]

I bought it and it's an amazing product for coding.

[goldcd]

Surely it's both.

1) Product has to exist - and now it does tick 2) Has to be useful tick 3) Has to have possibility of being make cheaper by mass production no idea 4) Has to be put into mass production depends on 3

So we're currently stuck on 3.

Not sure there's much demand for a colour e-ink tablet - but maybe could be layered with a transparent OLED. I'd cough up an extra £100 for that. Normal tablet - with reading mode. Spend a while looking at static image, OLED turns off, e-ink layer fires up. Scroll down and the OLED takes over.

[jonplackett]

That would be pretty cool. Could the e-ink just be set to white while the LCD did it’s thing and the LCD to clear while e-ink does it’s thing?

[_ph_]

I am so disappointed that Amazon doesn't invest more in the Kindle. They have deep pockets and a guaranteed market. Currently, I am still holding out for an upgrade of the Oasis, but would be willing to spend quite some money for upgraded Kindles and I think I am not alone (even if they just go to 8" and USB-C/Qi charging, it would be worth it). Of course a 10" Kindle would be nice and a true A4 Kindle just a dream.