The problem is that you sent e-mail instead of calling.
I had the same experience in a nearby city, sending 30-40 emails for every 1 response. I finally decided to get a prepaid SIM and start calling people, and suddenly things became much easier.
The person who I eventually rented an apartment from explained that she placed the ad in the morning, went to work, and received my call (and a few others) before she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies. The people who called already had appointments to see the apartment, so she wasn't even going to look at the mails unless those people were uninterested. She also remarked that she could tell from our brief initial conversation that I seemed like a nice person, which helped my chances; she doesn't get that benefit from an email conversation.
Looking at it from a potential landlord's point of view, it makes sense that calling an ad that has just been placed is going to have the highest success rate; not everyone checks their mail as often as tech-minded people.
Sage advice, I'll probably try it. Still, this may fix my immediate problem but it doesn't do anything for the elephant in the room that, judging from the comments here, was hardly addressed:
she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies.
THIS is the real problem. At the end of the day (or the week) it doesn't matter how one out of the 100 candidates is selected; what matters is that 99 fools will have to keep looking. Finding housing shouldn't be like applying to
Google.
What are you claiming is the "real problem?" I'd argue that the housing market in CPH is no more scarce than any major city, and the only reason it seems so to you is because you were seriously handicapping yourself by not optimizing your approach.
The fact that my landlord's ad received over 100 replies just indicates that there's a pool of "bottom performers" who are repeatedly trying to find housing by responding to ads despite the fact that they're doing some things wrong. Every new ad is going to receive a large number of responses from this same group of hopeless people. If they want to find a place, they're going to have to find out what's wrong with their approach and make some changes, just as I had to do.
Wow. Just wow. You've basically managed to reinforce just about any stereotype of an ignorant, unprepared American who shouldn't even be trying to live abroad.
This quote says it all:
> The building looked like a century old, fourth floor with no elevator (seems to be the norm almost everywhere)
BTW, one of the first things you should figure out when relocating is how the local housing market works, otherwise you will get screwed. Guess what: it works the same way the other way around (what do you think a European will experience if they try to move to NYC unprepared?).
My least favorite bit is the part that says "I'm now seriously considering to cut my losses, call it quits and fly back to civilization.".
As if civilization is determined by the housing situation and/or your own efforts required in order to get affordable housing, and any place that doesn't instantly give you a place to live within your means is not civilized.
In that case, you're just trolling and your story lacks all credibility.
For starters, because you should know damn well what you get into if you try to find housing in a major European city outside the normal housing system.
Also, because there's absolutely nothing abnormal in Europe about a century old building or four floors without an elevator.
My guess is you are well aware you screwed up by being unprepared, and now you're just trying to externalize the blame, hoping the readership here won't know any better.
I don't know that what this quote says that relays your point. Offer solutions rather than chastising the OP.
The idea is simple:
- OP moves to a new city
- He checks out popular rental websites to look for a rental house
- He applies to more than 30 of them without any replies
- One where he manages something is dingy and unlivable based on American standards.
- He rants
I do not see anything wrong in this. This method of finding rental houses works in several cities throughout the world - I have tried it in Singapore, New Delhi, Bangalore, NYC, Los Angeles, Sydney & San Francisco.
Also, I do not know about Copenhagen, but NYC is a very crowded place loaded with people with high income. Houses - especially in areas like Midtown or Downtown Manhattan are bound to be expensive (though you will still get responses for emails even there). However, it doesn't take rocket science to do a basic Craigslist search and check if things are cheaper in Uptown Manhattan or New Jersey.
I must say I had a similar reaction to the post. I'm sure it's hard to find a flat in Kopenhagen. On the other hand, that's just what I would expect: big cities in wealthy European countries are crowded and the rents too high. You would have similar problems in Munich, Amsterdam or London. What is surprising about your experience is less your difficulty finding a place than your prior expectations. You thought that going to a small country (outside the "civilization" of New Jersey) you would easily find a cheap flat, without doing much research, without knowing the language or making an effort in that direction, looking for a new building in an old city (why?). My suggestion would be finding a temporary place and a fresh, more humble start, realizing that you're in a different country.
As I mentioned in another comment, the rent is not particularly high in Copenhagen compared to other cities (although living costs in general are high), and Copenhagen really isn't that crowded. It's hard to have a crowded city in a place where most buildings are four to five stories high.
As for knowing the language: You don't need to learn Danish just to get an apartment - I know a ton of foreigners who got by for years here without knowing a word of Danish. But you do need to realize that one way or the other you have to talk to people - they'll help you find a place or help you translate ads.
And you've managed to reinforce just about any stereotype of the arrogant pretentious European that assumes ignorance is a strictly American trait since as you saw, OP is not American.
Neither are nearly as true as many like to believe.
I missed that as well. I based my assumption on the comment "student in New Jersey". I missed the annotation on the side indicating nationality. Regardless of nationality, he is explicitly comparing the housing market there to the US housing market. So, um, not quite sure how foolish to feel.
Yeah, I wouldn't either. I found the blog post a bit grating as well; we all have expectations that when not met can be a maddening ordeal, but this one just seemed uninformed from the get-go.
FWIW: I'm not sure I trust the listings: Living in Iran, nationality is Korean and the only language listed is English (and no gender specified). So I'm not sure that information is trustworthy. He/she might actually be American. I have a hard time believing someone is Korean (nationality, not ethnicity) and only speaks English and also lives in Iran but only speaks English. The hodgepodge of answers might indicate "I desire to protect my privacy" more than anything else. (And the writing sounds "American" in style to me. I didn't notice any expressions typical of, say, Brits or Aussies. Many foreigners who speak English as a second language speak/write British English rather than American English.)
And I suppose I found the post rather grating as well. I'm annoyed it got my goat. I wish I hadn't said certain things in some of my posts, regardless of what this individual's nationality turns out to be, presuming it can ever be realistically determined/verified.
The amount of discussing the messenger instead of the message in this thread is staggering but I'll bite anyway:
- Country, nationality and language are required fields in this site. Since leaving them blank was not an option, putting some blatantly bogus values was the second best.
- My nationality is besides the point but I'm not American. The "American" writing style may be thanks to watching too many American movies, frequenting too many American speaking forums or - guess what - living there as an expat for several years.
Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and over-crowded cities in the world. I'm not surprised that you couldn't find something in a rush. People sign their kids up for housing when they're born in this city.
That said, it sounds like your scope is something like the inner city of Copenhagen. That's a terrible starting point. It's much easier to find an apartment in the greater Copenhagen area: Frederiksberg, Albertslund, Ballerup, Brøndby, Gentofte, Gladsaxe, Glostrup, Greve Strand, Herlev, Hvidovre, Ishøj, Lyngby-Taarbæk, Rødovre, Søllerød, Tårnby, Vallensbæk, Værløse.
I am surprised, however, that your employer hasn't given you any references, tips, or even subsidized housing. Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane, it seems strange they would expect a foreigner to just "figure it out".
At least get a Dane to interpret all of the Danish apartment postings you're missing.
The term you want is "highest occupancy rate" or "lowest vacancy rate" not "overcrowded." I've had a hard time finding good numbers for comparison. What I've seen suggests that Copenhagen's vacancy rate is about 2%, New York City is 2.9%, and Geneva is 0.25%.
> Copenhagen is one of the most expensive and over-crowded cities in the world.
Overcrowded? Copenhagen has 6,100 people per km2. New York City has 10,600, Paris has 20,900.
Expensive? Sure, but not when it comes to housing. Renting an apartment in the city center is much cheaper in Copenhagen than in many other larger cities.
> Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane
It used to be hard. Nowadays it isn't that bad. But you do need to ask around. What cphhell should have done is talked to his employer - and, like you said, he should broaden his scope. If I go to live in NYC I don't expect to get an apartment on Times Square.
Population density is hardly a good measure. Munich has 4300 people/km2 and, let met tell you, it's hard to find an affordable flat there. NYC or Paris are hardly a good comparison, either. In this sense, Munich is very crowded. In October, in particular, the housing situation is even more difficult, given thousands of new students. I'm sure Copenhagen is somewhat similar.
thirsteh claimed that Copenhagen was overcrowded. I didn't bring density into the discussion.
> Munich has 4300 people/km2 and, let met tell you, it's hard to find an affordable flat there. NYC or Paris are hardly a good comparison, either. In this sense, Munich is very crowded
"Crowded" in the sense that thirsteh used refers to population density, not whether or not it's hard to find an apartment. Also, you can't automatically assume that it's hard to find an apartment in Copenhagen just because it is in other cities. It's gotten a lot easier in the past few years, and if you're willing to look beyond the city center, you'll find something pretty fast.
It's expensive in general. It has about the highest cost of living outside of Japan. OP was moaning something about not being satisfied with giving up half his paycheck.
Except that's not what overcrowded means. Also, most people I know (including foreigners) manage to get an apartment pretty quickly - but you can't expect to get something in the city center in a day without making an effort.
> It's expensive in general.
With housing being the notable exception. Try comparing what $700 or $1000 will get you in Copenhagen with what it'll get you in London, Paris, or NYC and you'll see what I mean.
> OP was moaning something about not being satisfied with
> giving up half his paycheck.
That's another area where he probably didn't do his homework. First of all, the wages are some of the highest in the world. Secondly, while the tax rate is high, the amount of deductions is so big that the vast majority of people don't give up as as much as half their paycheck.
If a small bump on the road like this is going to make you run then emigration is probably not for you.
In time you'll have to deal with lots more friction and red tape than the simple act of scoring a place to live in an area where such places are scarce.
If you do decide to stay, ask your colleagues if any of them would mind a roommate to cut their rent. In environments where housing is scarce doubling up is quite common. You might actually make someone happy to lower their effective rent a bit.
The domain linked is funny, being an expat is never 'easy', there are always hang-ups and issues. The grass always seems to be a lot greener on the other side, once you arrive you realize quite quickly that each place has its advantages and its drawbacks. Easy is staying at home. Being an expat stands for broadening your world view and your skills at the expense of some inconvenience.
Oh, and we actually like those old buildings, the one I'm writing this from was built in 1903.
I'd probably think the same if I hadn't done this exact same thing on three different countries already without breaking a sweat (relatively speaking).
Suffice to say that one of them was Spain, a country with one of the lowest percentages of English speakers in Europe, and me not speaking a word in Spanish at the time.
I moved to Copenhagen from the UK in February and had no problem. You just approached it terribly -- Copenhagen is not in America, and different places have different ways of doing things. You can't just expect foreign cultures to play by your rules. You have to do your research and find out how the locals do it. I got to see several nice apartments and they were decently priced, and am spending approx. 10% of my monthly wage on rent.
"Donating half of my paycheck to the taxman in order to live in a city overpriced by any measure is one thing."
Copenhagen has some of the highest wages in Europe. It also has fantastic levels of social welfare, income equality, universal education and healthcare, etc. Whining about high taxes also just comes across as so bloody stereotypical.
Is the 10% before or after taxes? Would love to get a sense of your rent (or equiv. wage) range if there are no privacy concerns.
The high taxes line was just a flippant remark, I can't really complain as I knew about it beforehand. Having said that, the perks that come from high taxes are of little value to an expat moving there for a 1-2 year gig.
Before tax. Rent is 3400 DKK, in a nice house share with two developers. Our lease is up in January (original owner wants it back), but it has been nice otherwise. 10 months here.
You can extrapolate the wage from this, but it's not high in the field at all.
Culture shock. I was a military wife and lived in Germany for a bit less than four years. I had to deal with some culture shock when I first got there, but not nearly as bad as many Americans who go there: My mother is German, I already spoke some German, I knew from family stories that the furniture and stuff is different.
One of the big issues Americans have with German homes: "The refrigerator is the size of a dorm refrigerator!!!!" This weirds out many Americans like it's the end of the world or something. Oh, and let's not get into the fact that many apartments are "unfurnished"* -- by that, they mean there is no refrigerator or stove or kitchen cabinets or light fixtures (just wires sticking out the ceiling) or kitchen sink (just a tap sticking out the wall). Germans move into rentals and buy appliances, kitchen cabinets, etc. The American housing office would cut deals with landlords and go in and supply the sink, stove, frig (an American style frig), etc. If you aren't military and don't have a housing office bridging some of these issues for you, hey, you get to cope on your own with the difference between what is normal in the US and what is normal in other places.
If you aren't up for that, yeah, run back to the US and continue to measure "civilization" solely in terms of (your concept of) material wealth, without regard to food quality, actual culture, local history and so on. Please do so quickly, before doing yet more damage to the public image other nations have of us "ugly Americans".
* This was more than 2 decades ago. I have no idea if things have changed since then. Feel free to give an update if you have more current info.
Most American rentals are unfurnished, but it comes with a fully outfitted kitchen and bathroom(s). The bedrooms and dining room typically have light fixtures in the middle of the ceiling. The only room without lights is typically the living room. We also have closets which are a great deal less common in Europe.
Another big difference is that most American apartments have "wall to wall carpeting", something apparently so unusual in other countries that I often have to explain what on earth that means to foreign friends (the carpet is installed as part of the floor and nailed down). In your typical American apartment, you have vinyl flooring in front of the front door, in the bathrooms and in the kitchen. All other areas have wall to wall carpeting. From what I gather, wood, tile or similar flooring is far more common in other countries. I have respiratory problems and allergies. I wish I could find an apartment here with wood floors. Wall to wall carpeting is something I loathe. In the US, if you want wood and tile floors throughout the home to accommodate allergies and respiratory problems, you pretty much have buy your own house (or possibly live in New York, which I have no plans to do). In fact, wall to wall carpeting is so common here that even if you buy a house, you probably either have to rip out carpeting and install your own flooring or have the house custom built.
I am betting that the lack of carpeting is something the author of this article would view as proof of being "a dive"/slum. Lack of carpeting does occur in some older American homes, often ones which were never upgraded. So it tends to get interpreted by Americans as a mark of poverty. Given my health issues, I tend to side more with some of my foreign friends who are sometimes appalled at the idea of wall to wall carpeting and find the idea disgusting and unclean.
Last, I will note that I have lived in five different US states and every rental market has its quirks. I lived from age 3 to age 20 in the same town. When I first left home, moving to another part of the US was something of a shock as well. In short, anyone who feels strongly that the rental/housing market should behave X way should just stay where they are. (It won't stay the same where they are either, but the changes are likely to be more gradual and thus less shocking than moving elsewhere.)
>In the US, if you want wood and tile floors throughout the home to accommodate allergies and respiratory problems, you pretty much have buy your own house (or possibly live in New York, which I have no plans to do).
Wood floors are plentiful in San Francisco, too, because there's a lot of pre-WWII housing.
Thanks. San Francisco is the only large city I have ever visited that I wished I could live in. (Granted, I haven't visited many large cities outside the US.) But even in most large US cities, wood floors in rentals seems to generally not be the norm. (Anyone with hard data, please correct me if I'm wrong.)
Exactly - the century-old buildings is where people want to live, because on the inside they're modernized and on the outside it's great architecture. Here's a couple of street views from Islands Brygge, the neighborhood cphhell mentioned:
"I have been to copenhagen" meaning, you rode the roller coasters in Tivoli? I'm sure visiting as an (affluent) tourist would be a much more pleasant experience.
I guess you need to talk to people to calibrate your expectations before looking. $750/month is simply not much in Copenhagen, I'm sorry to say.
I've looked a bit lately, and it is easy to find nice, 100sqm, modern flats with elevator etc. for 2000 Euros/month. It is possible but more difficult to find them for 1500. And to pay less one has to look for smaller, less modern etc.
However, the buildings in Copenhagen are generally about 100 years old (the one I live in now is from around 1920). And elevators are very rare in these old buildings. And there is a large body of old, small appartments with tiny bathrooms like the one you describe (around Copenhagen they are even called "Copenhagen bathrooms") - so if one looks at flats in the cheaper end of the spectrum that is what one will find. With eg. postdoc salaries after tax around 3000 Euros it is possible to find a place to live for most expats.
Already replied on a sibling comment but once again, the $750/month was for a single room, no more than 15-20sqm, in a two-bedroom flat. If that's "on the cheaper end of the spectrum", I might have to negotiate a raise.
The "Copenhagen bathroom" was the single worst turn off in the whole deal. Glad to know it's not like this everywhere in the city.
OK - $750/month for a room in a shared flat is actually reasonable. But if I were you, I would look at the rooms at around $1000/month. The selection should be much nicer and with fewer competitors. Then you can take your time to get advice from colleagues and probably find something equally nice for $750/month within 6 months.
You say it's a job offer, what had the employer suggested for accommodation? If they're willing to hire foreigners, I'd think they'd be able to accommodate you.
If Copenhagen is anything like other Scandinavian countries (I'm Norwegian), then it goes like this:
- If the ad doesn't list dates and times when the apartment will be shown, you phone up the landlord and make an appointment.
- You go and see the apartment. Obviously you will be in competition with other applicants.
- Talk to the landlord and make a good impression -- do whatever is needed to make the owner pick you.
- If you are interested in renting, you write down your contact details in the applicant book.
- The landlord will go home and consider the applicants and phone up the lucky winner.
- The landlord may require a credit assessment to determine your financial situation. Some landlords require references from earlier tenancies.
- You meet the landlord to sign a formal lease (Scandinavian countries are pretty strict about landlord/tenant rights) and get the keys.
When I was renting in NYC, things were different. None of the places I rented (which I found on Craigslist) would have open house dates; instead, you would make a personal appointment with the landlord. Also, landlords seemed to prefer email.
The housing market is quite competitive in Norway's bigger cities. Oslo in particular is crazy and expensive; as a student you basically can't afford your own flat, and almost everyone ends up sharing with several other people. I don't know what the situation is like in Sweden and Denmark at the moment.
As I am not a student, my main problem is not so much the cost as (1) the scarcity and the inane "competition" it promotes and (2) the sad state of the apartments condition, at least compared to modern housing in other first-world countries.
Strange that you find the state of Danish apartments to be sur-par. My experience has been the opposite. I am interested to hear what your criteria are.
Fire regulations, plumbing regulations and so on are very strict, so internally you shouldn't really find any qualitative difference between Scandinavia and "other first-world countries".
In Scandinavia we have a strong affection for historic buildings, an affection that extends to interiors. We like fireplaces, creaky hardwood floors, crown mouldings, exposed brick walls, that sort of thing.
So buildings might feel distinctly unmodern, even though they aren't really. Some facilities may be lacking. Elevators are only common in somewhat newer (post-1980) buildings, for example. Common laundry rooms are usually pretty awful. And I have never come across a Scandinavian apartment building that has a porter.
But these are not important things. So again, based on what criteria are you judging Copenhagen?
the type of bathroom typically referred to as a "Copenhagen bathroom". It basically means, that in the "old days", none of the working-class-apartments had showers. Eventually, this changed, but many of the apartments were so small, that it was almost impossible to fit in a big, modern bathroom. However, you get used to it very quickly and it is quite charming in its own way :)
The situation you describe seems very recognizable througout a lot of european caitals or bigger agglomerations. During my last searches I encountered all the points you mention in Utrecht/NL, I hear comparable things about Amsterdam , Cologne, Frankfurt, Hamburg or Paris.
So, welcome to a european capital! 1 hour travel to work, 5th floor without lift is the way to go: older houses far outside of the big cities. The suburbs are already filled with locals who do not want/cannot afford to live in the centers. I'm completely unaware of the situation in Denmark, but just looking on google maps tells me that maybe Roskilde or Farum could be places to look for.
Also: you move to another country: other habits. If it's the situation on the housing market I cannot tell, but the million ways of being (un)friendly or (not) answering mails/letters, dealing with business transactions etc are the things which makes relocating difficult at heart, they are not just annoyances. I live in "another" country for some 20 years and will move to another one this month: I expect (and already experienced) a lot of impedance mismatches which could trigger a "considered harmful" post, but in the end I will have to adapt to enjoy the good things of it.
Most of my friends live in Amager, Østerbro, etc. Anyone expecting to find affordable, modern accommodation easily in historic city centres is deluding themselves to a degree. Copenhagen has one of the more modern transportation systems in the world, so commuting is hardly an effort.
It strikes me a big part of the problem may be where he mentions "30 minute drive" - there's a big difference between 30mins behind the wheel of a car and 60mins on the copenhagen transport system (which, yes, is stunning)
I've always picked my location so that I don't have to commute more than half an hour each way but if that's what it takes to find a modern half-decent place in this city, I may consider living further.
This happened to me in another European country, I lucked out though and solved it myself. I would ask your employer for help if you haven't already. Even in a small company an email to all employees will tap you into their social networks and might unearth a few more websites or tips. Then there is couchsurfers, share-living with students for just two months while you hunt another place etc. Stick with it though; living in another country for a while is one of the best things you can do: "spend money on experiences not things".
I had the same experience in a nearby city, sending 30-40 emails for every 1 response. I finally decided to get a prepaid SIM and start calling people, and suddenly things became much easier.
The person who I eventually rented an apartment from explained that she placed the ad in the morning, went to work, and received my call (and a few others) before she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies. The people who called already had appointments to see the apartment, so she wasn't even going to look at the mails unless those people were uninterested. She also remarked that she could tell from our brief initial conversation that I seemed like a nice person, which helped my chances; she doesn't get that benefit from an email conversation.
Looking at it from a potential landlord's point of view, it makes sense that calling an ad that has just been placed is going to have the highest success rate; not everyone checks their mail as often as tech-minded people.