[danans]

> Saying tankage is cheap is to note that there is no upper limit on the amount of tankage you can have, and the watt-hours you can bank; your bottleneck is only the conversion rate.

I think there are a lot of use cases for those fuels that don't even require a lot of long term storage, my current favorite being hydrogen fuel cell powered semi trucks that already burn a lot of diesel crossing places that have a lot of renewable electricity potential but not enough transmission (i.e. wind in the Great Plains and sun in the desert Southwest). This would get around the issues with batteries eating into truck weight limits.

Also, the idea of freight trucks "sailing" across the country on wind power is just an appealing narrative.

[ncmncm]

Once people get used to electrical synthesis of ammonia, those wide-open spaces will be making their own fertilizer and tractor fuel.

They might sell the excess to nearby truck stops. Ammonia is not quite as dense as diesel, but trucks typically have enough room for it. Advantage is trucks (like farm tractors) can be cheaply retrofitted to burn ammonia.

I see reports about a problem of UK farmers who make more from dedicated solar, per hectare, than they were making growing. The problem may be self-limiting: they may end up unable to compete with farmers doing double- or triple-use, with solar, wind, and cultivation in the same field. Then, farmers not doing it will end up needing to, as prices decline.

[danans]

> I see reports about a problem of UK farmers who make more from dedicated solar, per hectare, than they were making growing.

> The problem may be self-limiting: they may end up unable to compete with farmers doing double- or triple-use, with solar, wind, and cultivation in the same field.

Can you share that report?

I'd like to see a triple use farm. Great idea in concept, but I doubt that there a lot places that have a climate that makes wind, solar, and shade vegetable growth economical on the same land. Otherwise we would see this pervasively across California's Central valley.

[ncmncm]

Sharing with wind is trivial, and already common.

Renewables are still very far from built out, so not seeing something done in your vicinity tells you very little about its practicality.

A pretty good rundown on shared use for solar PV and vegetable crops is at https://greencoast.org/agrivoltaics/ with reports of better yields, up to 3x in certain crops, from reduced heat stress and water loss, and also higher efficiency in the panels from cooler operation.

There are many different configurations being experimented with. Just elevating and spacing out the panels in otherwise conventional installations is common. But some are putting in exactly-vertical, double-sided panels, starting near ground level, that they drive tractors between. Panels have been used on the roofs of greenhouses for a long time. Using the framework supporting panels for other apparatus, such as irrigation piping, is common. In some fields, panels are placed directly above plants to protect them against harsh weather.

There are experiments with partially transparent panels, that harvest the green light plants don't use, and pass the rest through.

An example of people in UK complaining (at length) about solar PV displacing agriculture is at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFgM5hO2e1Y