[orochi235]

> I am not sure there is such a thing as "respect" at the very high level. The public opinion is easily swayed and important actions are dictated by pragmatism

This seems like a convenient way of just hand-waving away the entire concept of morality. Maybe this is how Russians view the world, but it's not how anyone else does. They say this is part of the problem with Putin: he just can't conceive of a world where every entity isn't a CIA or FSB puppet. It also illustrates why the civilized world feels like it can't in good conscience keep trading with a nation that acts like this.

It's not like this whole thing materialized out of thin air. Ukraine has been trying to free itself from Russia's grasp for decades. Everything that's happened there has Putin's fingerprints all over it: puppet leaders who promise one thing and then betray their people to Russia; the jailing of former leaders on garbage corruption charges; the red-handed vote rigging; the not-very-well-concealed assassinations. This isn't the norm anywhere else in the developed world.

Another hallmark of Putinist rhetoric is whataboutism. I mean, when everything you do is so cynical and violent, I guess it's the only real defense you have. Debating what actually happened in Libya is an enormous distraction—which may be the entire point—but the US had nothing to do with that uprising until Gaddafi sent a column of tanks after a bunch of poorly-armed rebels and the world reacted in horror. Was it a mistake to intervene? Maybe. But that's nowhere comparable to straight-up invading a peaceful country (twice!).

It's funny to hear anyone in Russia hand-wringing about the well-being of "economic migrants." Russia is one of the most ethnically segregated countries in the world and has done absolutely nothing for refugees anywhere except create more of them. It's widely believed that Putin's intervention in Syria was designed to displace as many civilians into Europe as possible, with the goal of causing a populist backlash. It may be downright evil, but he's gotten away with it for years.

In terms of which sources to trust, the Russian government has done nothing but lie to everybody for the last 20 years. US intelligence accurately predicted the invasion even when it seemed to take most Russian soldiers by surprise. There's all kinds of primary-source war footage, if you can stomach it. And Putin's objectives keep drastically changing, which sure makes any claims that he's succeeding seem suspect. As does the really harsh media crackdown and the threats to jail people for years just for saying the word "war." You don't have to aggressively "sway" public opinion like that when the truth is on your side.

> Even the thought that another great purge has begun fills my heart with warmth and childlike joy

I really hope you're kidding. Those things never stop where they're intended to, and it's certainly not your interests they're being carried out in.

[russiano]

I like how every time US has absolutely nothing to do with regime change and somehow the wiki page on that is mile-long. I guess this ok, because there are obviously "civilized" countries with proper morals and other countries that are eager to do a transition to democracy, just in need of a little push. With Yanukovich, it was already a democracy, almost a right one but not exactly

Whataboutism is about dropping the subject in favor of an unrelated topic, which is different from calling out double standards. I have a convenient example of the latter - the events that are unfolding right now on Solomon islands. Would you think threatening a sovereign nation for entering a military alliance while talking about Ukraine's freedom of association is hypocrisy? Please note that this not an attempt to justify the war, just questioning moral integrity

>the not-very-well-concealed assassinations

Wholly agree here, their incompetence is staggering

>Russia is one of the most ethnically segregated countries

What are you talking about? I lived most of my life in Russia and this is a ridiculous statement. Have you been to Moscow?

>You don't have to aggressively "sway" public opinion like that when the truth is on your side.

I am sorry to say that, but if you find your media tells truth and only truth that you can't question, it's time to get suspicious. I am saying that as someone who watched freedom of press deteriorating over the last 20 years

>I really hope you're kidding

I am. That was a phrase from a meme and I couldn't resist using it, sorry :)

[orochi235]

I'm not saying diplomatic realism is useless, or that countries shouldn't act strategically to further their own interests. I'm saying that you have to balance those needs against the very basic moral standards that are hardwired into (almost) all of us. I'm not talking about hypocrisy, but about the basal revulsion all decent people should feel in seeing hospitals bombed and innocents massacred.

Yanukovich was caught rigging an election in 2004. He got caught and lost the subsequent clean version. He then had the gall to run again years later (with loads of support from Putin), somehow managed to win, immediately threw a bunch of the old leadership in prison, and then set about breaking the promises that got him elected. That's why he got run out of office, and the fact that he fled to Russia when things got hot is very telling. The US had nothing to do with any of this. _Of course_ we were cheering for the people of Ukraine. Of course we were excited to see a people we viewed as long-suffering fighting so hard for their freedom. But Putin drove them away on his own, and Americans have no particular interest in Ukraine (or Russia, for that matter) that goes beyond wanting to see the world be a peaceful place that's conducive to free trade. And fwiw, the length of a Wikipedia page likely has a lot more to do with the community's level of interest in a given topic than it does the level of State Department complicity in that topic. :)

I was imprecise with my wording. The population of the USSR, as I understand it, was pretty deliberately shifted around in the 20th century to prevent uprisings, and I'm sure the former Soviet ethnicities themselves aren't segregated. But I have friends of color—people who obviously are not from the area—who _have_ been to Moscow and say it was uncomfortable in ways that nowhere else in Europe had been. Anyway, my point was more that you don't see Russia accepting refugees from the Middle East or anywhere similar: the country exists entirely on the supply side of the migrant crisis.

The situation in the South China Sea is complicated. I'm not going to pretend it's my area of expertise. That said, the Western agenda there is to ensure freedom of navigation for everybody, and prevent China from seizing one of the world's busiest shipping lanes. I'd also point out that no one has invaded anyone else (with the arguable exception of the Chinese dredging operations that sparked this whole controversy to begin with).

I agree completely that when you can't question the truth, it's time to get suspicious. That's exactly the point I was trying to make about the recent Russian media blackout. People outside of Russia have access to all kinds of information about the war, including official Kremlin statements. The Western media report on what Putin's spokespeople are saying. It's just that it usually turns out to be demonstrably false. The Biden administration, on the other hand, announced the invasion days before it happened. I don't trust them because they're my government; I trust them because they accurately predicted the invasion and because the reporting on the ground continues to corroborate what they're claiming.

I think I do a pretty good job of listening to other perspectives. I even watched a few autotranslated segments of Russia-1 before YouTube blocked it. (Olga Skabeyeva is freaking terrifying!) But how many times do you have to be lied to by somebody before you stop trusting them?

[russiano]

Just before opening HN to check for your answer, I saw a headline saying "US won’t rule out military action if China establishes base in Solomon Islands". The US for sure respects their sovereignity, BUT. I guess there is going to be another entry on that wikipage soon - this is not about shipping lanes, it's a power flex and we all know that

>Anyway, my point was more that you don't see Russia accepting refugees from the Middle East or anywhere similar: the country exists entirely on the supply side of the migrant crisis.

While it's mostly true that Russia isn't very eager to accept refugees, I disagree that Russia is supplying them, with the obvious exception of the current situation - right now here is more than a million of refugees from Ukraine. Speaking of Middle East, at least we are trying to stabilize it and talking to and supporting governments instead of "shocking and awing".

I guess you talking specifically about black people feeling uncomfortably in Moscow, and you might be right becase they are a rare sight even in the capital, let alone all other place, of course they attract stares and curiousity

Props to you for going as far as watching russian TV and you are right about them lying a lot, but you are a tiny minority. If you are still interested at checking pro-russian points of view, I can recommend RWAPodcast on Twitter. Ironically, I discovered them from american journalist Glenn Greenwald whose writing I enjoy a lot