[OminousWeapons]

> A counter is that other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, ...) that enforce traditional values have had a collapse in the birth rate.

Yes, but the value systems (at least in Asia) are quite different than even conservative ones in the US so I don't think that's a fair comparison. In Asia there is an expectation that relationships will lead to marriage, that you will marry well before thirty, that women will exit the workforce following marriage, that married couples will have children quickly, and that enormous amounts of resources will be spent on raising those children (especially in terms of education).

The birth rate has gone down there because it is overly burdensome to be married and have children under these expectations. This is far different than even conservative expectations in the US which basically amount to the father should be able to hold down a job and show up.

[kenneth]

I mean, sure, among the parents. Plenty of people in Asia love relationships for the same reasons young people do in the West: sex, money, status, comfort, etc. -- without needing an end goal of launching families.

The main difference is a lot of people here feel pressured by their families into a path to starting a family they don't want. Some balance those opposite forces, some just give in and have unwanted families while cheating to get what they really want.

Anecdotally, I've noticed a clear contrast since moving from the USA to Asia. Cheating is far more common here. I've dated a number of "taken" women here, and the common thread always seemed to be that they kept their unwanted partner around for appearances to placate family pressure.

[solveit]

> In Asia there is an expectation that relationships will lead to marriage, that you will marry well before thirty, that women will exit the workforce following marriage

I don't know about the rest of Asia, but the parts that were explicitly named (Japan, Korea) absolutely do not have this expectation.

[skrbjc]

I lived in Korea with my wife and while we were looking for work, she was told in several interviews that they didn’t want to hire her because she was married and they assumed she would have a child and stop working.

I don’t know where you are getting the idea that that isn’t the norm in those countries.