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by Mikeb85 1517 days ago
> You see this at the huge backlash you get, even here among relatively educated and informed commenters, when you dare to suggest that the US bears some responsibility for Ukraine's predicament even though Russia is of course wholly responsible for an unjustifiable invasion.

Only 1 country is killing Ukrainians: Russia. There's no US troops massacring and raping Ukrainians... The only thing the US is responsible for is that they could have maybe threatened Russia enough to not invade.

Anyhow, I've been sceptical of US hegemony at times however one thing is clear: the world is far better with the US as the dominant power than it would be if Russia or China were dominant. At least the US allows its citizens and those of its 'protectorates' (or whatever you want to call US allies/countries it protects) a large degree of personal freedom.

2 comments

The lines are clearer than ever for the 21st century. This century has been kicked off with the world struggle between democracy and totalitarianism.

People have a choice. Choose the US/Europe/Japan/South Korea/Taiwan, or, the mideast/Russia/China. Many people voted with their feet, migrating to the former nations. Those people have no room to speak as they already voted.

I'm missing some players of course, but generally speaking we in the Free World are definitely at a disadvantage and outnumbered by the hordes of people who desire strongmen and dictators. Most of the world actually does not want or trust themselves with self-determination through representative government. Russia is one of the few examples in Europe where the people want freedom, but don't really know what it is and are scared of the idea that they'll have to become active players in a non-farcical representative democracy.

The middle east similarly never asked for democracy. They largely see no use for it. Most of Asia is the same. The typical Chinese person prefers the greatness of China as a nationalistic power, rather than the greatness of their institutions progressing the freedom of mankind. Which is how most of us in Europe and North America view our true strengths as.

Of course, overt nationalism will lead to servitude, especially for Russia. They'll be losing Chechnya soon, and become a vassal state to China. Far lower than their previous state in the world. This is a nation that once slammed their foreheads on the ground in honor of their Turkish masters, now they are taking off their shoes for the Chinese. Their alternative choice was to ditch Putin, and join with the American, European and Asian democracies. Contrary to popular belief, we welcomed them. But Putin looks at old maps of the Russian Empire and honestly thought it was possible again. Being a farce democracy, there was no institutional resistance to stop him. He's only destroying Russia.

The Russian people are also ultimately responsible here. They chose to cower to Putin. I'm sympathetic to them to a degree, these are a people that haven't and don't dare to speak their views outside of their kitchen table. Yet inaction is an action. They can still stop this. But they have to storm the Kremlin and take him out ASAP. It won't happen. We have a newly confirmed genocidal state in the world to contend with.

> The Russian people are also ultimately responsible here.

I would be interested to learn about what steps you've taken to curb the abuses of your government. Surely your own government is not without fault, and through your logic you are responsible for all their transgressions.

That's a Soviet response right there. Everything must be examined objectively. It doesn't matter if someone else committed a crime or has a fault, that doesn't justify crimes of our own.

I'm happy to put myself on the defensive though. Self-examination is a path to enlightenment. I am guilty of many things in life. Some of which I have been punished and others which I never will be. In the portions of the Americas, Asia, and Europe that are healthy democracies, simple political engagement can suffice. Many things others would characterize as "abuses" were actually proxy wars against totalitarian regimes. If the entire world were healthy democracies, it would be a far more peaceful place due to having checks and balances on power. As opposed to dictators.

But that has no relevance here, when there's an active genocide occurring in Ukraine. I'm not part or parcel to that. Others are though.

> The middle east similarly never asked for democracy.

Oh boy... a blanket statement if ever I saw one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

The middle east similarly never asked for democracy. They largely see no use for it.

Full quote helps.. I realize the Iranian people are far more into neoliberalism than their leaders are, and that not everyone in that part of the world desires Sharia Law over neoliberalism. I certainly did not intend to insult those that do desire freedom / representative government in the region. But I do believe they're in the minority.

> I'm missing some players of course, but generally speaking we in the Free World are definitely at a disadvantage and outnumbered by the hordes of people who desire strongmen and dictators.

Dunno if I agree with this particular line (but I do agree with most of your post). India is a democracy, there's many quite populous democracies and many who live under dictatorships do desire personal freedom on several levels even if there's not necessarily democratic institutions in their countries at present.

There are those that desire their nation to be a part of the Free World, within nations that aren't currently. Of course. I didn't mean they're all doomed. Freedom fighters for democracy exist everywhere. There's many Russians like Navalny that desire this. He's an example of a Russian patriot, rather than just a nationalist. Had the Russians stood with him in a real way all of these years, tens of thousands of Russian lives and Ukrainian lives would've been saved.

We can't help them. They're a nuclear power. External help with Russian liberation is not possible. It's on them, and I understand how difficult it is. Freedom fighting is not in most Russian's DNA. But they're human, and even after 70 years of Soviet repression, it's still there. I want to have faith.

India is worth keeping an eye on. They are a member of the Pacific equivalent of NATO, the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue, but it will be interesting to see how devoted they are to a transparent and healthy democracy as opposed to just looking to counter China as a rival.

They don’t cower to Putin. He’s quite popular. Russians have loved tsars for centuries. There was an infection point in the 80s and 90s where they could’ve stepped lately into a modern democratic form of government and did not. It does not seem to be the Russian way.
* inflection lol
This viewpoint is simplistic to the point of absurdity.
Sometimes I wonder if these types of comments are state sponsored
I don't know how active the IRA is on HN, but there absolutely are state sponsored comments like those on the internet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency

Are we back to blaming the JDF too? Why not, right? Everyone I disagree with is a state agent
And your comment is useless and adds nothing.
I assume you are refrring to the laughable statement:

> The only thing the US is responsible for is that they could have maybe threatened Russia enough to not invade.

as if that wasnt a factor (by proxy via NATO) initiating Russian aggression.

> as if that wasnt a factor (by proxy via NATO) initiating Russian aggression.

This is basically the "she wore a short dress" defense...

The only country that initiated Russian aggression is Russia.

> This is basically the "she wore a short dress" defense...

I'm not sure why you characterize the assertion as a "defense". It's a reason.

People do things for reasons. Everyone makes choices based on how they perceive the world and predict the future from there. To flatly ignore circumstance is not constructive.

It's a shit reason.

Just like wearing a short dress is a "reason" rapists claim to rape.

Russia is raping and killing for reasons. But those reasons are shit and Ukraine doesn't deserve what's happening to them.