[PaulDavisThe1st]

Any fix for a failure in human organization(s) is going to come from ... humans. There are no hall monitors here, and there's also no magic wand. When things are of a large enough scope, the way that humans tend to organize to get things done, or get things fixed, is called "a state". Just like all human efforts, the outcome will likely not be perfect. But there actually isn't another way. Sure, you can suggest the idea that some alternate organization could do something, but it too will not be perfect. And an organization large enough to do substantive things about the issues at the top of TFA will essentially be a state, whether you call it that or not.

[trutannus]

> There are no hall monitors here, and there's also no magic wand.

Right, and saying "just pass a law" is asking the hall monitors to wave a wand.

[djbusby]

No. It's asking society to correct itself via legislation (we've done that before).

It's slower and less sexy than new-tech and has a better track record.

[trutannus]

I'm not advocating for crypto. I'm advocating against blind trust in the government to "pass a law" and fix it.

[shkkmo]

Who advocated to blindly trust the government? I thought that whole point is that democracy works by trusting your goverent with open eyes and working to correct it when it strays?

[cestith]

How about we don't put blind trust in either, but see where both might actually deliver?

[trutannus]

That's how I think we should!

[mr_spothawk]

> via legislation (we've done that before).

it would be helpful to me if you could cite an example. i don't actually think this is true.

[wcfields]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_regulation_in_the_United_...

[andreigheorghe]

are you asking for examples of things that were outlawed?

[mr_spothawk]

no, i'm asking for an example of "society [correcting] itself via legislation"

[wcfields]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt_laws_in_the_United_S...

[ModernMech]

The law isn’t magic though. It’s a system we designed for this purpose and we know how it works.

[trutannus]

Except that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is:

1. Bad laws got us into this place

2. There's a lot of inertia in government

3. There's a lot of stake holders in government who don't have citizen's interests at heart

4. It's illogical to think you can, in light of this, just pass a law and fix it.

Yeah, we designed the law, and we know how it works. Sadly, we know also that the way it works is generally not how it should, and it has been co-opted often for the powerful.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

"the problem with corruption, inefficiency and stupidity in government is corruption, inefficienty and stupidity, not government"

[shkkmo]

And crypto isn't dominated by the wealthy and being used to serve their ends? Open your eyes my friend. There is far more corruption and disfunction in the average cryptocurrency org than the average government.

[trutannus]

Did I say that? I explicitly say in multiple places that I'm not advocating for crypto, just asking people to not put the blind trust into their government "just passing a law".

It always baffles me why someone can't say "I'm opposed to X" without another person coming along and saying "that means you're in favor of Y". Don't respond to what you think I said, respond to what I actually said.

[shkkmo]

You seem pretty focused on this idea of "blind trust" of the government which nobody is advocating. So perhaps you should take your own advice?

I didn't assume you supported crypto. I was pointing out that crypto has all the problems you specified as bad or worse.

[ModernMech]

I agree with your points 1-3 but I don't think your conclusion in 4 follows logically. It misses important historical context of where passing laws did in fact create more equitable access to important civic resources. Take for instance the Civil Rights Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act. You could have made the same argument you are making now to dissuade people from passing those laws.

[trutannus]

I definitely think laws can do what you say. But I think that's not always what happens. What I object to is really more specifically how the gist is "change the laws, its an easy fix". Anyone who spectates government (odd phrase, I know) will understand that this is very much not an easy fix.

[TomSwirly]

"The economic system isn't working well, so let's smash it, eliminate the ability of the government to tax people, and give almost all the world's money to a tiny number of anonymous people, 90%+ of whom are affluent white Libertarian males."

Honestly, this whole thing just makes me tremendously sad now.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

Well let's face it, there's a widespread and popular political philosophy floating around (especially in the USA) which essentially boils down "the rich are not rich enough and the poor are too rich", so this proposal would fit right in with that !

[stickfigure]

Let me change the context and see if you still believe that argument: Countries like Russia and China don't need a global internet; they should just fix their censorship problems. VPN operators are scammers taking money from ordinary citizens.

[theamk]

Don't know anything about China, but many programmers have been leaving Russia for a last few years, and internet censorship is one of the big reasons for that. So it has the desired effect -- Russia has less talent, and thus its regime is less stable. It's tiny, but it's there.

As for "VPN being a scammer", this is all about trade-offs. If we had companies destroyed and robbed by VPN-powered ransomware, and we had plain people losing their life savings to VPNs, I'd argue for making VPN illegal. But it's not VPNs who are stealing people's money, it is cryptocurrencies.

[dcolkitt]

> the way that humans tend to get things fixed, is called "a state"... But there actually isn't another way.

Sure there is. It's called "entrepreneurship". In fact, far more of the improvement in the human condition has come from it than the state.

It's astounding to me that we're on an Internet forum about startups, and people are saying that the only way to improve the world is through political activism.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

Well, first of all "Hacker News" is not an internet forum about startups. You're thinking of the purpose of YCombinator, which hosts Hacker News but is not Hacker News.

Second, some of us have the experience of having been through, or been adjacent to, the social and political movements of the 1960s, which largely shunned actual political action in favor of personal change and the creation of new, non-state organizations. Despite the widespread availability of wholewheat bread in 2022, an honest retrospective analysis of this approach would have to conclude that it was largely a failure, at least in terms of the various goals involving widespread political and social change.

Thirdly, some of us have been a part of certain, ahem, startups that have gone on to be as much as part of "the problem" as anything that came before them, meaning that our expectation that entrepeneurial capitalism as the savior doesn't seem particularly promising either.

[mr_spothawk]

> Any fix for a failure in human organization(s) is going to come from ... humans.

Sometimes the best fix is a disassembly.