[bigDinosaur]

Where's that quote about how Spain always seems to be close to collapse, but still somehow keeps going? For a variety of reasons I am often surprised that Spain hasn't turned into a Swiss style federation, at the very least (i.e. with the Federal government almost being powerless). Madrid seems to be the only area that actually wants (or wanted) the state to be as it is.

[franciscop]

Spaniard here, I don't believe a federation-like would work here. Historically the more independence/leeway that has been given to Catalonia, the stronger it has snowballed into more separatism (e.g. when allowed to have somewhat different media, education, etc. that was turned to teach the younger generations that Catalonia is a different culture and not belonging to Spain, which in turn ...).

TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country, but I can see how both the left and right politic parties are destroying it (one with lies/doctrinism, other with oppression/treating them like they are still 3rd party) and makes me sad. When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language, after the Catalan (for Catalonian and the rest of Spain) and English (for tourists).

Edit: look at the numbers, it's scary how in a single generation a whole region has gone from 90%+ wanting to be united to 50%+ wanting independence, specially during a "peace" era:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#...

[melenaboija]

> When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language

Non separatist Catalan here and I can say this is complete BS. There is no doubt that there is more people in Catalunya that doesn't know Catalan than Spanish. I have been raised in a family that has been speaking Catalan for many generations and everybody now is almost bilingual with Spanish. And oh hell if I wish that English was the second language there.

Tired of this propaganda that only causes more pain and exalts nationalist feelings in both sides.

[franciscop]

Just my experience as an occasional visitor to BCN, lots of people will answer in Catalan when you talk to them in Spanish to make a point, but then in the tourist areas everyone speaks English. Not BS, maybe an isolated experience but that was my experience over there (and I only visited tourist-y spots, so there's a strong bias ofc). I'm not saying they don't know how to speak Spanish, I'm saying many people won't to make a point.

[capableweb]

Based on a couple of occasions I've been in Barcelona and around Catalunya, people always answered me in Spanish (both in tourist and non-tourist locations) when I was in Barcelona and surrounding areas, while when I visited Lleida and Vic (and surrounding areas), they always answered me in Catalan (and one time even got visibly angry when I couldn't reply to them in Catalan, only in Spanish).

So my anecdote would be that generally Barcelona seems to be fine with Spanish (and walking around the city I heard a lot more Spanish than both English and Catalan) while areas up north/west seems to almost require you to speak in Catalan.

[GekkePrutser]

Makes sense too as Barcelona is aan international city and has many immigrants from Latin America. And many people from other parts of Spain live here too.

In the rural area that's much less except for the migrant farm workers

[mejutoco]

As a bilingual Spanish-catalan speaker this does not match my experience at all. I was raised in Barcelona and approach people in either language and I can remember maybe 2 occasions were sbdy demanded to be spoken in one specific language. You can see this a lot in groups of friends where people switch languages all the time. It is a beautiful thing to see.

[the_gipsy]

It's not bullshit. It is the 3rd language, in a synthetic effort from the local government.

You could say that this is not bad, ok. But you can't deny it.

[AshamedCaptain]

Sorry but it is bullshit. I actually _tried_ to learn Catalan (I am already pretty fluent in Spanish) while I was teaching in Barcelona out of all places and found it impossible to use it in real-life. Everyone would just speak Spanish between themselves, even other teachers.

[hungryforcodes]

So true!

[melenaboija]

Is not BS it is a synthetic effort from the government? Lol.

Go there and experience it yourself and try to create an objective opinion from it. Another fact, most of the first generation immigrants will learn Spanish way earlier than Catalan, if they ever learn Catalan at all. And I am not saying this is bad, as for practical reasons they will obviously learn the 4th most spoken language in the world before learning a language that is spoken by 7 million people. Besides they know that with Spanish they can communicate with everybody, which is not the case with Catalan.

More rigor and an independent point of view from politicians and media is needed if there is a real will to solve the issue.

[GekkePrutser]

This is my reason for learning Spanish yes. It's just so useful in the world. Catalan is useless outside Catalonia.

If they do secede from Spain I will not learn Catalan, I will just leave. I'll probably have to anyway because I assume Spain will force them out of the EU and there's no way the multinational I work for will stay then.

It feels very similar to Ireland where they also use heavy handed methods to keep their language alive but in a globalized world it would hurt them a lot if it were actually needed to live there. So it has to stay this fringe thing. A lot of it is just to pacify the old people that still associate English with the British oppression (which was brutal to be fair)

I assume this will happen to Catalan too, the oppression is just a lot more recent to them. So it's more fresh and alive.

FWIW I'm Dutch and I wouldn't care if my country abolishes Dutch in favor of English. I view language as a means of communication, not cultural identity. And as such being able to communicate with as many people as possible makes a language more valuable.

[the_gipsy]

I've lived there for a decade.

[lynguist]

Catalan is spoken by 9.2 million people in Spain, Andorra, France, Italy (one town in Sardinia).

[nudpiedo]

That was an overwhelmingly optimistic article made long long ago. The truth is that not even everyone who got to learn it uses preferently within Catalan speaking regions. Let alone southern France or Alguer (Italy).

[logicchains]

>TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country, but I can see how both the left and right politic parties are destroying it (one with lies/doctrinism, other with oppression/treating them like they are still 3rd party) and makes me sad. When visiting Barcelona, Spanish is often the 3rd language, after the Catalan (for Catalonian and the rest of Spain) and English (for tourists).

What's wrong with having separate countries? Would Canadians be better off if they were part of America? I don't understand westerners who cheer for independence in places like Xinjiang and Tibet but steadfastly oppose the idea when any region of their own country wants to be independent.

[mikem170]

Agreed! There's the theory that people don't willingly aggregate into large countries, they need to be manipulated or coerced (pledge every day in school, anthem at sports events, etc), and that large countries inevitably become bullies, unable to restrain themselves from dominating the weak.

The book Breakdown of Nations by Leopold Khor talks about this. He talks about the idea of dividing into smaller political units to fix our problems. He makes a lot of sense. There's a video summarizing the book [0].

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaszpQaNwAU

[ipaddr]

This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate?

[capableweb]

To prevailing reasoning for not letting Catalunya decide that without involving the rest of Spain seems to be because Catalunya is one of the biggest contributor to the overall economy of Spain, so if Catalunya leaves Spain, it'll impact the entire country, not just Catalunya itself.

[zozbot234]

They are wealthy because they have high-quality policy-making and a less corrupt government than the other autonomous communities. Other parts of Spain could engage in reform efforts of their own and contribute just as much to the government budget. Why should this be an argument against Catalunya?

[pvaldes]

> they have a less corrupt government than the other

Yeah, sure.

"In July 2014, Jordi Pujol confessed that for 34 years, including 23 as the President of Catalonia, he had maintained secret foreign bank accounts inherited from his father".

"His children have amassed a fortune in private businesses that frequently did business and received contracts from the Catalan government" (The infamous 3% scandal).

"They have investments in the tens of millions of dollars in Mexico, Panama and Argentina. Financial records show the movement of money between foreign banks in Andorra, Switzerland, Jersey, Cayman Islands and other tax havens in excess of €100 million".

He and his seven children face charges for illicit association, money laundering, falsification of documents and seven different tax crimes. the prosecutor asks between that could compris between 28 and 7 years of jail. The wife has been recorded laundering money but has been exonerated by her problems of health.

Totally not a godfather figure, for sure.

[zozbot234]

Pretty much. The fact that we can read about these things is what implies that the government is less corrupt. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[capableweb]

> Why should this be an argument against Catalunya?

I have no stake in either outcome of independence happening or not, but I can definitely understand that some people can see it as problematic if one part of a bigger thing wants to leave without considering the other parts.

I still think Catalunya should be able to decide themselves, just like the UK decided themselves if they wanna leave the EU. Forcing states to belong to other states is something I thought we left behind a long time ago.

[ipaddr]

To force them to stay because other groups rely on money taken from them doesn't sound right. A similiar reasoning for keeping slavery existed in the US over similiar claims.

[pvaldes]

Slavery is an unfortunate comparison. Barcelona made a lot of money in the antiquity by being a main port in the slave trade that lasted until the XIX century it seems. Much later than other places.

The idea here would be more like: I rebuild your home, I spend a lot in infrastructures for you and now that you are rich you slam your door in my face.

[scns]

This. Same as in belgium. The part with lots of industry wants independence, the part without does not want them to leave.

[the_gipsy]

Why not let Barcelona (not in favour of independence) go of an independent catalonia? See where this goes?

[bigDinosaur]

Would this actually be such a bad idea if all parties were still part of some supranational entity like the EU with some level of free movement and common regulation?

[AshamedCaptain]

I actually would like to see this type of balkanization happen while still keeping everything inside the EU, incl open borders. This was actually the idea of the early Pan-Europa people... As it is right now, the population heavyweights in the EU have way too much say compared to the smaller states.

[ipaddr]

Why not? If Barcelona can make it as a city state why hold them back?

[the_gipsy]

That's my point. The independence movement would be dead if it excluded Barcelona.

[recuter]

Are you adjudicating a kindergarten dispute? What an amazing attitude.

For the record I am neither for nor against Catalan independence, it is none of my business and not my place to judge.

[logicchains]

Surely the kindergartener attitude is the attitude that a group of people should be denied self-determination and forced to be part of a larger political body against their will. It's the same kind of childish reasoning China uses to justify oppressing Xinjiang and Tibet, and that Russia's using for annexing parts of Ukraine.

[ipaddr]

But it's your place to judge other regions that may want to separate?

[Darmody]

Same reason they wouldn't let one of their cities vote for independence of Catalonia. What about a small town of 100 inhabitants?

You can't just start voting to secede from the country you belong to. Voting independence for the sake of it doesn't make any sense.

[ipaddr]

Voting independence is preferred over military or terrorist tactics.

An independent town may want to separate but wouldn't have the resources.

[pvaldes]

> Voting independence is preferred over military or terrorist tactics.

I have a better idea, why not threat with stop breathing until their requirements are accepted?

Now seriously. This is a false dichotomy. Threatening an entire nation with terrorism until you have your candy and are allowed to stole the properties of the majority of your neighbors is neither acceptable, funny, or serious. Not when all that you have to sustain your utopia is a big mouth and guerrilla tricks seen in internet.

If suggesting naive adolescents to engage in terrorism is the level of the arguments, we need more adults entering the room. Blackmailing an entire country will often backfire.

[Darmody]

Giving me a billion dollars is preferred over terrorist tactics. The argument makes no sense here.

What if that town votes for independence and then votes to be part of, lets say, China? They would have enough resources then. But anyway, nobody is using the resource argument here in the Catalonian independence issue.

[smcl]

> Giving me a billion dollars is preferred over terrorist tactics. The argument makes no sense here.

You may not like it but it does make sense - countries have come into existence as a direct result of "terrorism" leading to civil war. Given the demographic breakdown of HN, it is very likely you live in one of those right now. Also remember that Spain struggled with violent separatist movement which was still active well into this century, so it is certainly not outside the realm of possibility.

[raverbashing]

Balkanization is the wet dream of several national adversaries (speaking generically)

Oh and you can bet Puidgemont was seeking russian support for his independence plans https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2021-09-03/el-equipo-de-...

(Which doesn't mean many people don't have a legitimate wish of independence or more autonomy but of course the discussion has many nuances)

[zozbot234]

> Balkanization is the wet dream of many enemies of Europe

Meanwhile, back in the real world, states in the actual Balkans are actively joining the European Union and gaining freedom of movement throughout the region. Even Balkanization is not what it used to be.

[recuter]

He used the term not in reference to the actual balkan geographical area.

In the real world there are world powers that benefit from a unified Europe with strong central authority and those that don't. Brexit serves the interests of the later. Scottish independence would further those interests still.

Catalan independence weakens Spain and by extension NATO.

This is not a statement on the morality of such movements or whether they might be a good idea in the narrow sense for Scots, Catalans, the people of Flanders and so forth. Rather it is a look at the larger map and unintended consequences.

Finally, as to what is actually happening in the Balkans - the state of affairs between Kosovo and Albania (ironically they might form a union) and Bosnia is.. not fantastic to say the least.

Sadly memories are short and attitudes are cavalier.

[AshamedCaptain]

> Scottish independence would further those interests still.

> Catalan independence weakens Spain and by extension NATO.

Why? Does any of these actually want to leave NATO?

Or is this just a generic conservative position "change causes political instability, political instability bad therefore change bad"? ?

[pvaldes]

> This sounds crazy but why not let go and allow them to decide their own fate?

Because is my country also, and they want to gag me and to steal me.

The sovereignty of a country relies in all citizens, and the citizenship came with some inalienable rights. In the same way as Nevada couldn't wake up tomorrow and decide that they will became part of China and the rest of the Americans can't enter or live there anymore. Changing the fate for every citizen would need to consult every citizen in the country about what they want to do, and the immense majority of us don't want to lose part of our country by a bunch of crooks. Period. Is called democracy.

[inglor_cz]

The Basques got the right to manage their own finances and it seems to have quelled the independence push. Financial autonomy also helped to rein in separatists in South Tirol, a German-speaking region of Italy.

Maybe the same should be extended to the Catalans.

[franciscop]

The Basques got their most extreme terrorists put into Jail after decades of blowing up people, which you could also argue might have helped quelling their independence push as well...

Luckily I'm too young to remember, but I do know older people talking about ETA with fear and me thinking they were overblowing it, until I stumbled upon the wikipedia article with all they did and holy cow when I looked at the list of the 2000s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ETA_attacks#2000%E2%80...

[armadillu]

> Historically the more independence/leeway that has been given to Catalonia, the stronger it has snowballed into more separatism

Maybe this is what happens when you try strangle a nation and its culture, but you fail to do it entirely. Catalonia was conquered by force, and luckily its language and culture survived along the centuries (despite all attempts). You can't invade a region, enforce your language and culture and expect it to magically become yours. Look at what happened to all the other (former) Spanish colonies, how many of them fought for their independence (and won it)?

> TBH I do not know what the solution is here, I'd like to see a unified country

You would like a "united country", but this will prove difficult, as there is no such thing. Spain is just Castille and a bunch of other regions conquered by force – with more or less success at assimilating them into the Castilian culture over time. Some went along, some do not feel like they belong, some feel entirely mistreated but got an ok tax deal with enough leeway, and some just had enough altogether.

Many Catalans (me included) don't want to be part of Spain, and I doubt this will change any time soon. Especially on those who witnessed what happened during our attempt at a peaceful referendum in 2017. The speech the King of Spain gave after citizens where beaten for trying to cast a vote(!) is a great example. The silence of the non-catalans whilst the beating was happening another one. The former King doings, his fleeing out of the country with total impunity, and how the farce of a judicial system treated the whole thing, one more for the list. There's a certain "way of doing" embedded deep into Spain, that I fear will never go away ("atado y bien atado").

There's only one solution and it's what Catalonia has been asking for all along. Allow a fair referendum, where the repercussions of both options (stay and secede) are explained clearly to the population, and let the people decide. It seems inconceivable to me that a proper referendum about this ongoing issue is not allowed, especially in a supposedly democratic country like Spain.

I could see Spain and Catalonia being good allies within the EU; but as it is setup now, the relationship is just not working. And making it work "by force" will only stir more and more trouble.

> it's scary how in a single generation a whole region has gone from 90%+ wanting to be united to 50%+ wanting independence, specially during a "peace" era

I think you are confusing 90%+ "wanting to be united" for "not bothered enough to do anything about it".

The end of the dictatorship (without consequences the fascist side btw) gave hope to a lot of people, and attempts were made to "make it work" despite all the terrible acts Catalonia suffered. As soon as it became obvious there was no way to decide our own future whilst inside Spain (see Estatut d'Autonomia 2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalon...), it was clear that it was all a farce. Anti-Catalanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catalanism) and other attitudes / reactions from many parts of Spain towards Catalonia lead to this. It is way too easy for political parties to get votes around Spain by stirring anger towards Catalonia... I think most catalans would be happy remaining in Spain if their language, culture, traditions and pockets were respected. But that's just not what Spain wants Catalonia for.

[pvaldes]

I'm undecided between if is propaganda or trolling, but there are so many falsehoods and hallucinations in this post that I don't even know where to start.

> Spain is just Castille and a bunch of other regions conquered by force

Hem... not and not. Marriage arrangement is not the same as violence necessarily

Nobody has been beaten for "casting a vote" in this country in many, many time. That scam was not even a real election and the desired results were rigged from the start.

Please, stop with the Franco bullshit. You were not the only Spanish that suffered in the civil war.

[armadillu]

Are the Galician, the Basque, the Catalan, and even some Andalusians happy to be part of Spain? Who is hallucinating here?

Were referendum voters not beat? Is this also an hallucination? That was just unjustifiable. Legal or not, Spain left the catalans who want to decide their future no other choice than to organize a mock referendum. This is what happens when you deny peoples rights for that long. And after seeing how the Spanish government reacted on its own peaceful citizens, how would anyone want to stay?

Nobody said Catalonia was the only one suffering during the dictatorship, lots of people from many places in Spain did. And I am not sure why they want to stay in, especially seeing how certain things will never change.

[mdp2021]

> I'd like to see a unified country

Careful 'what you wish. You want options.

If all your rooms get painted green but your colour is white...

[mdp2021]

Will the pestiferous snipers glance, in these days of news reporting "Victims of war rape have no right to abortion in refuge Country", at the flow of "This about to be illegal in this State" in the past few years within a most prominent federation...

There is no "love it or leave it" if there is no "leave it". Existence should not be a bed of Procuste - least you accept that /I/ take the measures and /you/ submit to them.

Surely there will be some place where "debate" is not different from "pooling", and they will be as comfortable there as we find it a buggery.

[inglor_cz]

„I am firmly convinced that Spain is the strongest country of the world. Century after century trying to destroy herself and still no success.“

Source: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1886698-otto-von-bismarck-i-am-...

[AshamedCaptain]

There is also a nice quote from when, after a period of chaos in the late 19th century, Spaniards democratically chose to bring in a foreign King to govern them (sorry if I got this wrong -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadeo_I_of_Spain ). In a short two years, Amadeo ended up fleeing the country claiming Spain to be simply ungovernable; and that the most dangerous enemies of Spain where the Spaniards themselves.

[cycomanic]

I was very surprised how little education there is amongst Spaniards about the Franco area, how this plays a significant role in the catalonian independence desires. Also how little processing of the Franco regime there was (compared to Germany), I mean the last Franco statue was removed only last year.

[the_gipsy]

La transición was way too soft, out of fear of a coup d'etat. Decades later and we still suffer the consequences of that fear.

[permalac]

Like just rebranding their fascist tribunal? In the same building with the same people, but one day they become Democrats.

Amazing story.

Also, they have a tribunal that has two powers, and another one that decides if money has been well spent, if they decide otherwise you get to pay with your properties.

Amazing country, and is part of EU.