[chrischen]

The problem is that the US has for a very long time pretty much unchecked global power. All our free-speech, what is it good for, if it cannot effect change? Look where Snowden is. Even the captain mentioned in the article pretty much told people what he did, and so is The New York Times now, but if people don't bat an eye what's the point? Heck the whole NSA spying thing was leaked something like 5 years before Snowden, and nobody cared.

I think most American's won't really care about what our government is doing to others thousands of miles away so long as we can buy our iPhones, watch our movies, and browse our TikTok.

I think the only practical thing that can be done is to encourage competition from America's equally-sized rivals (pretty much just China at the moment). That being said, these other countries are often not saints themselves (looking at you China), but competition is really the only thing that can check the abuse from any single party. While there are smaller "better" countries they are still within America's sphere of influence and even if you move there and avoid contributing to US taxes, you still end up contributing to that ecosystem that essentially powers the American system (most US allies participated in the war in the middle east).

[erklik]

> That being said, these other countries are often not saints themselves (looking at you China).

Depends on who you are, isn't it?

Ask the Chinese. I am sure they love their government (I believe surveys have shown that there is high level of approval)

Ask the Afghans. The Chinese aren't bombing weddings and schools.

Ask the Yemenis. The Chinese aren't funding the Saudis which are causing a man-made famine in their nation.

Ask the Americans. Ooooh. China is terrible. I mean, there's a bias, no? They're the ones at risk of losing their spot at the head of the table. Makes sense they wouldn't like them.

[chrischen]

Approval is moot, as US presidential approval is rarely that high, but most Americans will probably support their government over a foreign one, as most people will support their own government (it's only rational).

I think China is big enough that it operates in much the same way as any large organization... that is to say it will be doing so many things that there will be plenty to disapprove of. Whether they do more or less harm than Americans is up in the air, but my point is really that both China and America both do some pretty disagreeable things. And yes, if you ask the Americans they will say they do less evil things, as if you ask a Chinese citizen they will most likely say America is more evil or in the best case (from my experience at least) they will say America is just as evil.

I think one of the primary anecdotal experiences I've had is that I've asked my Chinese relatives and they acknowledge China's horribly corrupt and evil, but they think America is equally as bad... whereas most Americans are ignorant of our own problems.

Unfortunately since there's really only two major world powers and spheres of influences right now, there isn't a whole lot of competition and wherever you go you'll step on some unsavory things.

[throwaway0a5e]

>but they think America is equally as bad... whereas most Americans are ignorant of our own problems.

Takes more than a small serving of cognitive dissonance to say that here. We can't talk about anything but the most narrowly scoped niche technical subject without a bunch of people having a circle jerk about how America is doing it wrong/evil/should be more like (rich western) Europe/etc.

[chrischen]

In the grand scheme of things it doesn’t if something is slightly more rotten than the other thing or a lot more rotten. They’ll both end up spoiling.

I was educated in America from K to 12 and some college, across 3 different states and even 3 years in Canada (where they actually shat on America a lot). Most of what we are taught about freedom or democracy is bullshit. When it comes down to our foreign policy at least it’s really just us or them. The cognitive dissonance is in holding that belief that we are actually helping the countries we invade or topple via the CIA.

[alduin32]

> as most people will support their own government (it's only rational).

I think that this is an interesting discussion by itself. Is nationalism rational by itself ?

I don't have many interesting arguments to make about it, but if I would argue that it's not so evident that it is rational behavior, but rather an irrational behavior that stems from the way our society is structured.

[AussieWog93]

This is a pretty "hot" take.

The Chinese government are funding/supporting all kinds of unsavoury things all around the world (yes, the same way as the US does), in addition to the political abuse that is doled out domestically (Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Shanghai, and depending on your definition of "domestic", the constant threats of invasion aimed at Taiwan).

[erklik]

> around the world

I am curious. What conflicts or wars is the Chinese governemnt funding around the world or is involved in? Who are the Afghans or Yemenis of the Chinese government?

[AussieWog93]

>I am curious. What conflicts or wars is the Chinese governemnt funding around the world or is involved in? Who are the Afghans or Yemenis of the Chinese government?

In terms of active conflicts happening right now in 2022, none I could name off the top of my head. That's not say there isn't any, of course, but they're not as big/well known as the American ones.

My comment was more about them propping up foreign dictatorships when it's in their national interest (again, similar to what the US does), such as what they've been doing for decades in Kazakhstan, Cambodia and North Korea and are starting to do now in Africa.

[erklik]

> In terms of active conflicts happening right now in 2022, none I could name off the top of my head. That's not say there isn't any, of course, but they're not as big/well known as the American ones.

Looked it up. The only current active conflict that China is involved in is "Northern Mali" where they contribute UN Peacekeeper troops. I can't seem to find anything else so maybe something is happening in secret but who knows about that.

> My comment was more about them propping up foreign dictatorships when it's in their national interest (again, similar to what the US does), such as what they've been doing for decades in Kazakhstan, Cambodia and North Korea and are starting to do now in Africa.

That's probably fair. However, I wasn't ever talking about that. I specifically stated Yemen and Afghanistan as the examples because that's actual conflict. Propping a friendly regime to you is bad, yes, and is terrible [1] but I don't think it can be compared with actually dropping bombs on people, which is what the US is doing.

China is clearly, as far as public evidence goes, not funding/involved in any sort of wars. The US is involved in multiple wars and is actively funding one, while supporting the other heavily. This is ignoring that the past two decades, the US has virtually been at war constantly. I really don't think the US and China are remotely comparable today. So, I don't see why it's hard to believe that the rest of the world, the people who are the ones getting bombed, wouldn't prefer China over US. It only makes sense.

1. although not hypocritical in the case of China to support a dictatorship but is very hypocritical for the US

[watwut]

There is genocide going on in China committed by China right now. I mean seriously, it is possible to criticize USA without whitewashing genocides around the world. If you bothered.

And that exact whitewashing of China, Russia is what weakens your point.

[chrischen]

The article we are commenting on literally describes indiscriminate killing of people by the US military. If all you have to do to justify killing a people or imprisoning them in Guantanamo is to label them as terrorists then China is way ahead of you. They are just preempting their own terrorists. So is Russia. They are just fighting Nazis in Ukraine.

It’s pointless to argue who is more corrupt/evil. It doesn’t matter if one side is even a lot more rotten than the other. Any rotting system will continue to rot until they resemble each other.

My whole point revolves around the ignorance of Americans to their own atrocities, because, believe it or not, that Chinese citizen has the same line of thinking on their own country’s atrocities.

You might argue that Chinese citizens are also subject to propaganda on the atrocities. But actually many are well aware of that. The difference in America is that we think we don’t have propaganda. Propaganda is really just a prevailing spin in information. Just because there is free speech doesn’t mean some prevailing biased take cannot exist.

[watwut]

The comment I am responding to is not so much about American guilt as about arguing that China is somehow better. Note how not a single sentence in my comment rationalized or minimized Guantanamo.

> So is Russia. They are just fighting Nazis in Ukraine.

I know this is tangential, but that is not actually all that Putin is saying tho. His rationale is way more far reaching and involves a lot about where he see Ukrainien future as such.

As in,even going by Russia propaganda, this statement is not true.

[alduin32]

> I think the only practical thing that can be done is to encourage competition from America's equally-sized rivals (pretty much just China at the moment)

That is a bleak outlook. It would mean that any kind of revolution, or internal change, is effectively impossible, and that the only way to limit the powers of nation-states and corporations is through adversarial confrontation with similarly sized competitors, which can come at huge cost (wars, sanctions, etc).

Internal changes are still possible, but we need to fight for it. While that may come at a huge cost, I believe that it would end up less costly than endless confrontation with similar powers.