[toolz]

Somehow with multiple comments about how embarrassing the phones association with republican organizations is, no one seems to be talking about how they backup your messaging data in a possibly insecure way and exposing peoples email address if you have an associated phone number.

Surely I can't be the only one who finds it incredibly frustrating to see how many people think being republican associated is noteworthy when in the context of scary privacy violations. It would seem to me you're just encouraging republicans to buy this phone. Surely, the privacy conscious people in this community want privacy for everyone regardless of political affiliations, right?

[matthewdgreen]

>Surely I can't be the only one who finds it incredibly frustrating to see how many people think being republican associated is noteworthy when in the context of scary privacy violations.

I think the point of the conversation is that this is a bad privacy product that is being heavily marketed towards (technically) unsophisticated people who subscribe to a specific brand of politics. Those two facts aren't unrelated. In other words: conservatives are the intended victim here, not the butt of anyone's joke.

[hunterb123]

> marketed towards (technically) unsophisticated people

it's being marketed towards gullible people, period.

as a conservative programmer, I saw the ad and laughed.

it was called out by people in conservative online communities as well.

[seanw444]

Yeah there are lots of bitter people in these comments making sweeping generalizations.

[filmgirlcw]

I haven’t seen any comments encouraging anyone to buy this phone.

If you take making fun of the phone and the people dumb/gullible enough to buy the phone, “encouraging republicans to buy this phone,” well, I don’t know what to tell you. If someone is so full of spite for the evil leftists that they’ll run to anything some of those users make fun of, that’s on them.

But no one thus far has encouraged anyone to buy this piece of shit product.

[tomc1985]

Here? I don't think you're going to see any.

And I think there's a legitimate use-case for people who feel that their favorite social networks are censored. Doesn't matter if the apps are full of garbage, that is what they want.

[ImPostingOnHN]

I don't think this phone can unban abusive former Twitter users for the user, so it still won't support that use case (in addition to being not great at privacy)

[ElemenoPicuares]

> * Somehow with multiple comments about how embarrassing the phones association with republican organizations is, no one seems to be talking about how they backup your messaging data in a possibly insecure way and exposing peoples email address if you have an associated phone number.*

> Surely I can't be the only one who finds it incredibly frustrating to see how many people think being republican associated is noteworthy when in the context of scary privacy violations. It would seem to me you're just encouraging republicans to buy this phone. Surely, the privacy conscious people in this community want privacy for everyone regardless of political affiliations, right?

It's frustrating when people unnecessarily politicize things— like when they express righteous indignation over their inaccurate accusation of political discrimination in a thread that's literally just pointing out its association with divisive partisan political groups.

[duxup]

> think being republican associated is noteworthy

I think a phone associated with a specific political party is noteworthy.

[ceejayoz]

> It would seem to me you're just encouraging republicans to buy this phone.

I don't see anyone in this thread doing this.

[chipotle_coyote]

The problem here is that "Freedom" in "FreedomPhone" does not seem to be "freedom" the way free software advocates define it, or privacy advocates define it; it seems to be "freedom" the way far-right activists use it as a dogwhistle. If people are a bit focused on the company's politics, it's because they put those politics front and center.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if there was some company doing the inverse of this -- marketing to the segment of the far left that believes tech companies are, if not explicitly conservative, explicitly uber-capitalist and willing to pander to conservatives at every turn to prove how "centrist" they are[1] -- and was doing the same thing that the FreedomPhone is, then the discussion on HN would be pretty similar: we'd be going, "Hey, this looks like it's basically a rebranded phone with dubious software that's being marketed to people with a political chip on their shoulder." The flavor of the chip isn't irrelevant, but it's not what's specifically curious and scammy about it.[2]

[1]: I am sure there are conservatives who are reading this and scoffing at the idea that leftists think social media companies are biased against them. All I can say is that I probably follow more leftists than you do, then, and you're gonna have to trust me on this one.

[2]: There is an interesting and weird history of marketing scams that specifically target conservatives, and evidence that there's more of that on the right than the left (although by no means is it exclusively right-leaning).

[andai]

Re: [1] I was wondering what a phone targeting left-leaning people would look like, but I think that's pretty much just Twitter, Tumblr etc? You seem to disagree on this point, so I'd be curious to hear more.

[fabianhjr]

Probably a Fairphone since it values sustainability and worker rights in their supply chain even if the value for buck of their devices is lower than the main corporate brands like Apple/Alphabet/Samsung. (Plus support for unlocking the bootloader, flashing a custom ROM and relocking the bootloader which means it recently got CalyxOS support)

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Fairphone_4

[shakna]

A left-targeting phone would be something like purism's offerings [0] or pine [1], would it not? Though, those aren't exactly rebranded junk as a scam, so they might not count for the purpose of this discussion.

[0] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

[1] https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/

[filmgirlcw]

Bingo.

[filmgirlcw]

I think an Antifa/socialist/anti-capitalist phone would look very different from Twitter or Tumblr. It would in some ways, maybe look similar to a very pro-privacy/anti-Big Tech phone the way the FSF and some other groups see things (which isn’t to say that everyone who follows the FSF is a leftist or that everyone who identifies as more left of whatever center you want to choose supports the FSF, because that obviously isn’t true), against anything with a proprietary or closed bent.

Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, YouTube, Reddit, etc., for better or worse really don’t represent a left or right ideology. They represent the mainstream. Now, you or I may find that mainstream too conservative or too progressive, but I do not believe that any of those platforms are ideologically driven one way or another (even Tumblr, where the userbase is historically younger and thus more leftist, banned porn (a distinctly anti-leftist move) and has historically had a much more laissez faire attitude towards banning users than many left-leaning people would like…). It’s important not to confuse the userbase that is most visible on a platform for the platform itself).

The Freedom Phone isn’t targeting run of the mill conservatives. Those users are just fine using their iPhone or Samsung. It’s targeting people who are zealots and convinced the world is against them. It’s targeting Q Anon believers (tho not exclusively) and people who think Fox News is too left of center. That’s why it’s a grift. It is targeting people who would rather adopt something that is a scam, just because it agrees with their idea that the system is rigged and everyone is against them.

As chipotle_coyote says, there are, for whatever reason, less scams aimed at leftists. I don’t think it’s b/c the group on the right is any less intelligent, but because the nature of this sort of culture tends to be that the left eats its own, so selling a specific grift to them is a lot harder.

[chipotle_coyote]

I don't honestly know how you'd make a phone targeting left-leaning folks, but I wouldn't have actually thought how to make one targeting right-leaning folks, either, because to me both of those use cases are covered by, well, phones. :) If I was trying to follow the scam playbook, I guess I'd probably install Mastodon, Signal (or its weird broken fork that started this conversation, I dunno), and maybe a few leftist news apps, but even that's actually a bit tough -- there's multiple surveys over the last few years suggesting that conservatives get news from markedly fewer news sources than liberals do. As much as MSNBC may desperately wish otherwise, there is no liberal equivalent to Fox in terms of audience loyalty. (Although, the FreedomPhone specifically calls out NewsMax and OANN, which suggests they're going for people who think Fox may be a little too liberal!)

As for whether Twitter, Tumblr and friends are canted to the left, here's why I'm doubtful of that. (Also doubtful of the inverse, to be clear.) It's fairly trivial to create a Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, etc., follow list which is curated to your favored sociopolitical bubbles -- that's basically going to happen if you use the sites as designed. The more you interact with those bubbles (e.g., what you like and what you retweet/reblog), the more focused they become.

Okay, so, that's all probably pretty obvious, but here's the thing. Once you're in your favorite bubbles, the problems you see on, say, Twitter are going to be the problems that bubble experiences. If most of the people you follow are deeply invested, either directly or indirectly, with far right activism, you're going to see and hear about far right activists that Twitter has flagged or suspended or banned. If most of the people you follow are deeply invested, either directly or indirectly, with LGBTQ activism, you're going to see and hear about LGBTQ activists that Twitter has flagged or suspended or banned. But those two streams are very, very rarely going to cross. And that makes it very easy to think it's your particular in-group that's bearing the brunt of Twitter's evil machinations.

[tacocataco]

The corporation that makes/develops the phone would be a co-op with equal ownership/profit sharing between all workers.

No capitalist would steal the surplus labor value of the workers involved in making the phone.

It would be hard to get the entire supply chain to fit this model without first creating an organization like Mondragon. [1]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

[reilly3000]

Look, I’m resigned to the fact that most of the leadership and investors in most of the companies I support are voting red. It’s in their self-interest, and the majority of them are highly ranking members of the church of self-interest; acolytes of the reverend Milton Friedman. Many of the open source projects I love most for their utility and verve are built by libertarians who aren’t very amenable to paying for social safeguards. Needless to say, my political and economic views skew elsewhere. Regardless of that, I’m going to support their services and projects on their own merits, and according to my needs and those that I perceive in others.

This is different. The Freedom Phone is another cash grab against some of the most vulnerable people in my country. Their susceptibility to manipulation has been laid bare and the wolves of the world have picked them over again and again. This is targeting marketing it is most cynical conclusions. The formula is well known: Push a high margin product and service to an addressable group. Speak to their fears and with their in-group language. Tell them exactly what they want to hear and make them scared to death to do anything but buy it. It matters not what substance is behind the product. In fact, in schemes like these, actually delivering real value is antithetical to the point: to become rich, by way of filth.

I’m not politically aligned with the group that is being targeted for The Freedom Phone. In fact, they as a group have repeatedly gone out of their way to hurt people that I care about. That said, they are people just like me and don’t deserve to be defrauded. This post did an excellent job of demonstrating how they are being lied to and that makes me mad as hell.

Based on the way they treat security and compliance from what we can see on the front end, I shudder to think what it is like on the backend. Unencrypted PII+payment methods, sloppy secrets, resale and abuse of customer data are all on the table, possibly more. The thing about these kinds of schemes is that they are almost never sustainable. Technical, social, legal, and/or financial debt will eventually cause their implosion. It’s just a matter of how many people they screw over in the process.

I’m going to spend part of my Easter Sunday sending this blog post and my thoughts to the FTC and some attorneys general. I would encourage you to do the same if you’re able and so inclined. Getting this in front of media is also valuable. Exploitation of this variety is cancerous and fully deserves to called out early and often.

[reilly3000]

Quick follow up:

When I was putting together my report I found some wild stuff. I had to share this gem from their terms:

>The relationship between Federal and State Agencies, the privacy of records, and non-participation in [medical insurance]: In addition, I understand that, since the Association is protected by the 1st, 7th, 9th, and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, it is outside the [jurisdiction and authority of Federal and State Agencies and Authorities] concerning any and all complaints or grievances against the Association, and Trustee(s), members or other staff persons. All rights of complaints or grievances shall only be settled by an internal Association Committee. Therefore, for the benefit of the association and its members, I agree not to seek any remedy for relief in the [Public Domain]. I agree that my violation of any part of this membership contract would result in a [no contest legal proceeding] against me. The privacy and security of membership records maintained within the Association, which have been held to be inviolate by the U.S. Supreme Court, the undersigned member waives [HIPAA, ADA, FDA, FTC privacy rights and complaint process].

https://www.clear.software/pages/clear-companies-private-mem...

[Shared404]

Well said.

I don't really have much to add other than saying thanks for being a good person.

[freedomben]

Indeed. When I clicked on the thread I expected more serious technical analysis of the bad security. I could get "lol stupid suckers with victim mentality" pretty much everywhere else on the internet. Fortunately at least some of the more egregious comments have since been edited.

When a bunch of the comments are about how stupid the target demographic is, when there's tons of interesting technical meat to talk about, it's kind of embarrassing.

[blitzar]

> when there's tons of interesting technical meat to talk about

There is nothing technically interesting to talk about - its litterally big tech tech with an eagle, fighter jet and amaerican flag skinned on it.

[loeg]

> Somehow with multiple comments about how embarrassing the phones association with republican organizations is

As of this writing, no comments exist that match that description. One comment mentions that it's a phone marketed at conservatives, but does not describe that association as embarassing.

[testbjjl]

Front running victimization.