Would someone pleading the 5th count as probable cause? I would hope not. That would go against the idea that you can't be punished for exercising a right.
Go on. How is forcing someone to testify against themselves with the threat of criminal charges (tax fraud!) and then using that information in a criminal investigation not a 5th amendment violation.
I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know anything. I’m just curious.
I believe that the current legal situation goes further than just keeping people from being compelled to testify. Pleading the 5th also can't be used as evidence against someone (because that would be a form of compulsion), or even as probable cause.
I asserted that 5th amendment should prevent the government from using this coerced testimony.
Would this not taint any investigation started on the basis of coerced testimony? Why would the exclusionary rule not kick in here?
As far as I understand in a criminal context no adverse inference may be drawn from ones refusal to self-incriminate. How would investigating someone for refusing to self-incriminate to the IRS not be exactly that?
>I asserted that 5th amendment should prevent the government from using this coerced testimony.
Again, you did no such thing:
> Presumably investigating someone over that would violate their 5th amendment rights, no?
An investigation can be initiated, and can proceed, without any testimony whatsoever from the accused.
Which coerced testimony are you attempting to refer to? The cops show up and ask you about your tax return, and you say "". Either they continue to investigate you or they don't, but you have not been coerced into saying anything at all.
> Presumably investigating someone over that would violate their 5th amendment rights, no?
>I asserted that 5th amendment should prevent the government from using this coerced testimony.
This kind of revisionist interpretation, that a poster will engage in to make an altogether different assertion, is not uncommon on HN. Pointing it out gets downvoted, overall making the conversations worse because it's viewed as nitpicking, when it's really just trying to avoid bad faith...wasn't there an article posted about this recently?
If the government asks if you, Bill the graffiti artist, painted any graffiti on the wall of a giant chicken, and you said no. They could still apply a penalty for lying to an LEO if that exists as a law if they can catch you later.