[yu-carm-kror]

The points are essentially:

* ski trips and the like build good rapport

* chance encounters with colleagues are valuable

* steps make you healthier

The world is realizing that these are so much easier to solve for in remote-first work than it is to solve the problems associated to office-first.

[noduerme]

I will say this about the world, though. (As someone who hasn't gone to an office job in 20 years).

* No one builds rapport through zoom meetings.

* People have forgotten how to handle chance encounters, and display a lot of signs of social discomfort now when they do have them.

* People also stopped taking care of themselves during the pandemic, at the same time everyone started working from home.

The world is realizing what offroad warrior freelancers like me realized a long time ago, but it takes time to realize it: It's actually hard to organize your time and take care of yourself in the absence of formal structure. I think it will take 20 years or so before a majority of people in white collar positions really adjust to creating their own work/life balance now that it's open to them to choose how to manage their geographic place and time. It's actually a lot of responsibility, and something a lot of people never asked for.

[teh_klev]

I'd disagree with all of your points.

> No one builds rapport through zoom meetings.

I joined my present company in 2020 and had no problems building a rapport with my fellow workers via Teams.

> People have forgotten how to handle chance encounters, and display a lot of signs of social discomfort now when they do have them.

I don't see any evidence of this. I have plenty of chance encounters and don't feel any less comfortable about them compared to pre-lockdown, and neither it seems do the folks that are on the other end of those chance encounters.

> People also stopped taking care of themselves during the pandemic, at the same time everyone started working from home.

People also stopped sitting in cars and trains for hours on end commuting to the office and used that time to get some exercise. Sure it's anecdotal, but you couldn't buy a bicycle around here because demand went through the roof.

> It's actually hard to organize your time and take care of yourself in the absence of formal structure.

I've worked remotely almost continuously since 2003 and have managed to maintain enough self-discipline to stay organised and look after myself (certainly at least as well as if I'd had to go to an office for "formal structure").

> something a lot of people never asked for.

I disagree, they were told they couldn't because employers have a natural distrust of their staff and "this is the way its always been". Working from home is weirdly seen as some kind of perk, it's not, it's still work.

Now don't get me wrong, there'll be a bunch of folks who either can't work from home and being in the office is their thing (or an escape :) ), but there are also plenty of folks who can function perfectly well working from home so why not facilitate that?

[isoprophlex]

I flat out disagree with every single point you make. Not to dismiss your own experience, disregard what you are saying, or be snide or whatever, but:

1. I met my new manager (switched jobs) for the first time over MS Teams in a personally challenging time; I needed to take care of my family the second week after starting a new job. I worried a lot over this, which was met with incredible kindness and empathy.

2. I've started several serendipitous, fruitful collaborations by expansion of offhanded questions or remarks in remote meetings.

3. My mental and physical health is better than pre pandemic because of less commute, more leniency to take a walk or bike a bit, lower stress around picking up kids, being able to cook my own food instead of relying on (potentially unhealthy) cafeteria

[teh_klev]

> more leniency to take a walk or bike a bit

The company I work for will happily let you do this even after already having had your lunch break. As far as they're concerned as long as the work gets done they don't care that much as to how it gets done.

[nowherebeen]

People don't realize that walking is a way to think and thinking is work as well. Many successful people, including Steve Jobs, took long walks during the day. It helps the mind focus and untangle all your ideas in your head.

[silvestrov]

No one builds rapport through zoom meetings

I disagree. I think rapport is created when you create things/solutions that makes sense for the business. You don't create rapport by being in same room when things don't make sense.

In high school I made rapport with teachers that were good. I did not make rapport with bad teachers who pretended to be good at their job.

Same as developer: rapport is made with other people who strives for clarity in design and communication. No rapport is made with people who play people games. Office time versus zoom time does not make any difference.

[civilized]

Yes! I've been remote for many years, more than anyone else I know. I learned how to work long before videoconference was even an option, and I never turn my camera on. Some people have never seen my face live. But they know who I am. Because when I come in the room, good questions start getting asked, brains turn on, decisions are made, roles and accountability are set up.

If you're there to do the work, the other people who are there to do the work appreciate the hell out of you. (And most of them don't turn their camera on either.)

[chronofar]

> It's actually hard to organize your time and take care of yourself in the absence of formal structure.

It’s not hard, it just takes deliberate action. Learning to take said matters into your own hands rather than conforming them to what you “have to do” (aka formal structure) is something most people would benefit from as early as possible in life.

[_proofs]

no one builds rapport in zoom meetings?

no one builds rapport in zoom meetings where the company strangles the meeting space with an expectation of conduct and subject matter*

whole internet communities born around games which rely on communication are quite literally filled with (positive) remote rapport.

quite a few demographics have had long time remote-friends (i personally have had a few, one i practically grew up with from ages 9 to 23, and have stayed in contact with) -- never met them irl bc logistics are hard.

i just do not understand this notion of not being able to build relationships remotely -- it is a fiction.

[koide]

In my experience you can build rapport through video calls. For certain not in meetings with groups, but on 1:1s it's doable. You have to be conscious about it and put more effort. But it's not impossible. In fact, for me it's easier because it's not by chance, I can put myself in the right mindset to have meaningful conversations rather than bumping into random people when solving a problem in my mind.

I do agree it's a lot of responsibility, but life changes that way. Horse breeders didn't ask for the Model T and so on...

[BlueTemplar]

Funny that you would take this example since personal cars (as we know them since the Model T) are likely to become restricted to rich people in a few decades...

(Though I doubt horses would come back to replace a significant fraction of them.)

[koide]

And if that came to happen it only strengthens my argument, as I'm sure car manufacturers aren't asking for that change either.

Life changes and there are a set of people affected negatively by those changes. Those people never ask for those changes. They happen anyway.

[chaostheory]

> It's actually hard to organize your time and take care of yourself in the absence of formal structure.

I have strong doubts that you’ve been remote for “20 years”. This is much easier to accomplish working remotely. Outside of tech and Silicon Valley, there are still managers who are keen to see their their employees warming their seats despite the proven effectiveness of the independence of remote work

[gnome_chomsky]

> * People also stopped taking care of themselves during the pandemic, at the same time everyone started working from home.

I'm healthier than ever. I bought an exercise bike, have a home weight setup and my diet is cleaner. I have several coworkers who have done similarly.