[yzmtf2008]

Tangantially related, I remember reading the Asahi Linux wiki [0], and was shocked by this statement about Apple Silicon machines. It's fascinating that Apple has a reputation for being anti-libre, yet the hardware they built is arguably very libre-friendly.

> This puts them somewhere between x86 PCs and a libre-first system like the Talos II in terms of freedom to replace firmware and boot components; while a number of blobs are required in order to boot the system, none of those have the ability to take over the OS or compromise it post-boot (unlike, say, Intel ME and AMD PSP on recent systems, or the DMA-capable chips on the LPC bus running opaque blobs that exist on even old ThinkPads).

> From a security perspective, these machines may possibly qualify as the most secure general purpose computers available to the public which support third-party OSes, in terms of resistance to attack by non-owners.

[0]: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Introduction-to-Appl...

[ChuckNorris89]

>yet the hardware they built is arguably very libre-friendly

Well they're already in legal trouble for abusing their iOS market dominance with the new EU proposed legislation, they know the tides are turning against big tech, so they didn't lock down the MacBooks preemptively to brace themselves for what's coming, not because Apple has somehow now become a FOSS supporter.

Before you applaud Apple for being too libre and think the company has changed direction, keep in mind this is the same company that ships recently launched monitors without user replaceable power cords and locks out in firmware the possibility to upgrade the SSDs on the very expensive Mac Studio despite teardowns showing that it's phisically possible by end users.

Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums? They serve completely different markets. For those consumers or companies that need to run X86 windows/Linux binaries that have no Mac ports, M1 based hardware is off the table from the start. And the device from this topic is designed to cater to that market, not to compete with M1.

[d3nj4l]

> Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums?

Because this thread isn't about x86 news; it's about a laptop. And Apple makes laptops, which have the M1 chip in them. It's completely fair to discuss them, especially because one of the selling points of TFA is that it supports coreboot.

[Casteil]

> Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums?

Honestly? Efficiency & battery life without sacrificing speed/performance.

If you need great battery life (or simply don't want to have to worry about charging your laptop frequently), it's hard to swallow ~4-10h battery life of a typical X86 laptop when MBA/MBP are consistently achieving 10-16+ with real-world use.

...not to mention the other perks MacBooks hold over their competitors, e.g. fit/finish, display quality, speakers, etc.

>They serve completely different markets.

Do they, though? With so many things being web-based these days, it's not very hard for most people (without specific needs) to switch to an M1 as their primary device without experiencing problems.

[vishaltelangre]

> when MBA/MBP are consistently achieving 10-16+ with real-world use.

Really? I have a 2019 MBP and it doesn't last more than 3 hrs on 100% charge. The only usage is for the web development. And this is my third MBP (the old ones are dead because their magic boards became dead after the expiry of 1yr warranty + 2yr AppleCare plan).

The battery drains pretty quickly if I attach it to an external monitor.

Also, the evil `kernel_task` process eats up all CPU cores (for minutes and the machine remains unusable in the meantime) that drains the battery within an hour if I don't keep my table fan pointed at it (probably because Apple doesn't give a sh*t about the products they sell in India and their performance at 30-45 deg celsius temperature which is normal in Indian subcontinents).

[alsobrsp]

> when MBA/MBP are consistently achieving 10-16+ with real-world use.

I never get more than a couple hours on my MBP, 2.5-3 tops.

[dmd]

Then there's something physically wrong with it. My M1 MBP - which is near-constantly at 100% CPU doing neuroimaging tasks - gets about 9 hours. If I'm not running high-cpu tasks and just web browsing, I've gotten 13-18 typically (e.g., two full days of use between charges).

[dylan604]

>If I'm not running high-cpu tasks and just web browsing,

You state this as if they are 2 different things. Sadly, more and more shittily designed sites are using more and more resources. Whether that's just a poorly written bit of JS or a maliciously written bit of JS, web browsing is becoming more compute intensive.

[runnerup]

I believe the M1 is much better at computing JavaScript as well. Comparable intel x86 CPUs have 60% more branch misprediction during JS benchmarks and ARMv8.3-A added the processor instruction FJCVTZS (Floating-point Javascript Convert to Signed fixed-point, rounding toward Zero).

Especially due to the better branch prediction, the M1 simply does quite a bit more web browsing with fewer VPU cycles used, thus less power consumption.

[throwntoday]

Let me guess the device is over two years old, your display is always above 70% brightness, you have chrome opened with over a dozen tabs, alongside it a bunch of other background apps you don't actually need open. Oh and probably a VM or docker. How close was I? ;-)

[runnerup]

The only one that matters is if their MBP is over 2 years old. I got my M1 the week it released and I only run it under the conditions you describe. Sometimes accidentally leaving baldurs gate 3 / Stellaris / Civ6 running in the background.

It still gets a battery life of “oh I showed up to an all-day working session with a friend with 50% battery life and forgot my charger and I don’t have any anxiety about that” battery life.

I think the least it’s ever gotten was around 10 hours. I’m still getting 14+ after a couple years of abusing the battery charge levels.

The iPhone 13 Pro Max is also the first phone I truly never worry about battery life since a late-stage flip phone in 2007. (Or the Samsung S5 Active which had a replaceable battery, I just carried a couple extra around in my pocket).

[throwntoday]

>The only one that matters is if their MBP is over 2 years old

I wasn't just asking because of the potential wear on the battery from abuse, but M1 laptops did not exist 2 years ago. Although the intel macbooks still had great battery life for their size. People who put their device through it's paces and wonder why the battery is draining so fast are a special breed that's for sure.

[sokoloff]

Intel or M1 CPU?

[als0]

Sounds like what's normal for a mid aged Intel Macbook.

[ChuckNorris89]

What use is all those perks for those of us, if the apps we use for work and play are not compiled for M1 nor web based? Meanwhile my "inferior" x86 machine can run everything I need to use.

Why do people insist you need to buy a Ferrari when your work or lifestyle requires an F-150?

Therefore, back to my original question, why do M1 fans need go off topic on every X86 article and spray the same things over and over again: "but muh' Geekbench score", "muh' excellent battery life", "muh' no fan noise" and insist you're wrong for choosing to go X86 even though you don't have a choice because of the architecture.

We know the pros, Ok? But some of us still need X86 machine like the one in the article, regardless if those are machines not for you. And if they're not for you, that's fine, but why always bang on with the M1 trope everywhere?

[serenitylater]

The comment section isn't a zero-sum game. The fact that alternatives to the x86 are brought up in the comments section could be useful for many people, it might not be for you, but it is for many people. To use your own analogy, how many people are currently sputtering around the USA in pickup trucks that don't require a F-150?

[ponyous]

Genuinely wondering, why specifically do you need x86? Some legacy software? Is the compatibility layer not working (Rosetta or how is it called?)?

[ChuckNorris89]

I need to run Windows video games (new and vintage), Linux tools for penetration testing and windows and Linux tools for embedded development and reverse engineering none of which have M1 ports.

On top of the software I can't run on M1, I can't stand, from an ergonomic perspective, MacOS's rigid opinionated workflow and Apple's stance on upgradability, repairability and general environmental unfriendliness, plus their pricing on RAM and NAND storage wich have two to four times the markups I can gen get on the free market for the Framework (RAM and Storage are more important to me than screaming M1 performance) but that's besides the point, my main point is that I can't run my software and tools on the M1, so I don't understand why everyone on HN wants to crucify you for using X86 instead of M1.

[Casteil]

I get that there are specific use cases that preclude M1 as a choice, I even noted that by saying "without specific needs in my post.

>so I don't understand why everyone on HN wants to crucify you for using X86 instead of M1.

No one's "crucifying" anyone, nor "insisting you're wrong for choosing X86".

People are just (rightly) impressed & excited by M1's efficiency/performance/battery life - for many that's a highly desirable set of traits in a laptop, so it's easy to recommend. Sorry this seems to offend you.

[dylan604]

>I need to run Windows video games (new and vintage)

Need? I'm not judging for what one does in their own time, but need? Is that really true, or are we pushing this term just a bit for dramatic purposes? Like, are you getting paid for running this games? Are the use of these games part of your actual J O B? If so, then yes, I'll agree need is accurate.

[StellarTabi]

> Why do people insist you need to buy a Ferrari

The cheapest M1 laptop is actually really affordable, almost the same price as this laptop's cheapest configuration. This is probably the exact product I would be looking for if I were trying to avoid buying from Apple. I couldn't find anything on cooling/fans, so IDK if this will be another standard Intel jet engine and lap burner.

[ksec]

It is not really just M1, this pattern is very specific to hardware category on HN.

[yokoprime]

> Also, as a curiosity, why is every thread related to a X86 news, need to bring in the Apple M1 fan army and bang their drums?

What do you mean? The root post complains about M1 and thus it was brought up. It's not like an Apple bro army parachuted in and started comparing x86 to the M1

[lumost]

I suspect everyone is waiting for the news to drop that either a top of line ARM machine is released outside of Apple, or for AMD/Intel to announce a competitive ARM chip.

Computer enthusiasts have heard for ages that X86 is bloated, and that alternate instruction sets are better if only the tooling good catch up. Now that Apple is pushing ARM across the line, and ARM servers are becoming popular - folks want to see the linux ARM machine.

[cultofmetatron]

this describes me to a T. I'm dying for a nice arm laptop with a good form factor with open source bios running linux.

[outside1234]

Honestly I have both a Linux machine and an M1 MacBook Pro - so I am interested in both!

[uuyi]

Err the monitor has a user replaceable power cord. I have one and removed it fine. It’s different because an IEC lead won’t fit in the design envelope. Even the stand can be replaced.

The SSD is also a misnomer. The influencers couldn’t put a normal SSD in a mac and make it boot. But they don’t understand that there is integration with the crypto at hardware level. And there’s no reason to suspect that apple won’t provide SSD replacements on the open market as part of their self repair program.

This is the power of crappy influencer bloggers. Distributing misinformation which everyone parrots verbatim. They are a cancer on the planet and so are the followers.

Realistically these are absolutely trivial issues in the scale of things blown way out of proportion by people looking for problems rather than actually using the hardware.

[ChuckNorris89]

>The influencers couldn’t put a normal SSD in a mac and make it boot.

No, Linus put the SSD from another Mac Studio into the second slot of a Mac Studio and it wouldn't boot, and it wouldn't even run recovery to format everything and do a factory reset. So Apple is obviously firmware locking the Mac Studios to their factory configuration despite only genuine Apple hardware being used in the upgrade.

[uuyi]

Yes you can. You need to use Configurator to do it. It has been confirmed by iFixit. It’s the same as the Mac Pro was: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210626 . You can’t just swap a disk. You have to actually re-pair it with the crypto and then reprovision it and recovery etc.

Again Linus doesn’t know what he’s doing. Another influencer confirming my point.

This is not a PC. That’s where the assumption goes wrong.

[ChuckNorris89]

You're making a confusion between replacing and upgrading.

He showed you CAN replace the SSD modules but only with identic size ones, but you CAN'T upgrade to bigger ones as that triggers the firmware lock.

Watch the video he posted he tried what you mentioned.

[argsnd]

Literally nobody on YouTube, certainly not Linus, has attempted to upgrade the storage modules with a supported configuration that the machine is shipped from the factory with.

There isn't a single other SSD controller on the market that knows how to work with arbitrary quantities of NAND flash chips because it's an unnecessary engineering challenge, I don't know why anybody thinks it's remotely reasonable to expect Apple's to be different.

[uuyi]

Yet.

Also there’s some holes in the back you can upgrade your storage with…

[geraneum]

I always liked the LTT videos and was a subscriber. I don't think there's anything wrong with reviewing products and having a certain opinion, however Linus has a stake in a company which makes laptops whose main selling point is the ability to upgrade and repair the parts (Framework). He has a horse in the race. This doesn't automatically disqualify him from having an opinion, at the same time I don't value his opinion as much as an independent reviewer like Steve at GN.

That is troubling for me and I believe is not a super ethical practice!

Edit: Fix grammar mistake

[rvense]

This is cart before horse. Linus worked with PCs for years and saw (obvious) problems with Apple's hardware, and so he's invested in a solution. He's been critical of these things since long before Framework was founded.

[uuyi]

Linus is only after clicks and subs.

[goosedragons]

That doesn't change the facts though? They don't let you upgrade the storage even if you have two first party storage cards.

[geraneum]

It doesn’t matter regarding what I said. It’s about dissing your competitors. Sure that doesn’t make it a lie but it’s better if people know where you stand; As an independent reviewer vs shareholder of a competitor brand.

It also affects how he presents the facts and directs the videos.

I say this while loving Framework and hoping that their approach puts pressure on likes of Apple for openness. No sympathy for Apple here.

[SahAssar]

Apple themselves say "Note: The power cord is not removable from the display." here: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/studio-display/apdf106...

[uuyi]

It comes off. And you can get them to replace it in an apple store.

I think this is mixed messaging to be honest.

[ChuckNorris89]

>It comes off.

Everything comes off if you yank on it hard enough. Even the fingers on your hand. That's not how great UX or environmentally friendly repairability works though.

>I think this is mixed messaging to be honest.

Regardless what it is, it's Apple's fault here. They claim it's officially not user replaceable. Good luck with a warranty claim if you yank on it and break something, as Apple's position is clear: You're not supposed to remove it yourself.

And how about Apple's famous "we care about our CO2 emissions so much, we removed the iPhone charger to save the environment", if now you're saying you should make CO2 emissions and drive your monitor to the Apple store to replace a friggin power cord that can be done at home on any other monitor on the planet.

It's infuriating.

[Tagbert]

It is not intended to be user removable but it is certainly replaceable if damaged. What is the big deal?

[bzzzt]

> Before you applaud Apple for being too libre and think the company has changed direction, keep in mind this is the same company that ships recently launched monitors without user replaceable power cords and locks out in firmware the possibility to upgrade the SSDs on the very expensive Mac Studio despite teardowns showing that it's phisically possible by end users.

I don't get all those accusations that are constantly recirculated on tech forums. A non-removable power cord has a big advantage: it's hard to lose it. I've never damaged a power cord before (or heard of someone who had) so is it really that damning you should go to a repair shop for something like that? Also, Apple never advertised removable SSD modules. I don't care what they put in that box as long as it works as advertised.

[ChuckNorris89]

>A non-removable power cord has a big advantage: it's hard to lose it.

How could you possibly loose a monitor power cord? It's not a portable device that you travel with. But in a home or office setting I can certainly see the cord getting crimped under the weight of the feet of desks or chairs.

>so is it really that damning you should go to a repair shop for something like that?

Yes, going with your equipment to an Apple Store enquires down time and extra costs that wouldn't be a problem if you could swap the cable yourself in two minutes.

Heck, they already do that with the excellent removable mag-safe power cable on the Studio display. Come on! Seriously. They proved they can do it but choose not to because fck the consumers and the environment.

>Also, Apple never advertised removable SSD modules. I don't care what they put in that box as long as it works as advertised.*

That's the problem. It's not about you, it's about the environment and the e-waste that these company's products generate because while they could be more user upgradable and repairable like the old Macs were that people still upgrade and use today, Apple now spends resources to make sure their new products are not upgradable or repairable, in order to have you buy more of their stuff instead of keep using their old products for longer.

[dylan604]

>cable on the Studio display.

This is an interesting bit about how the same company can "design" so many different ways to do the same thing. I wouldn't expect them to have a dedicated team to design power cords/sockets. So teams designing different products at the same time will probably have slightly varying designs. Then I go back to that's what VPs are for to see what's going on within each design team and see how good ideas from one can be shared in the other teams.

In other words, how can something as cool and useful as Magsafe be on one thing and not obviously mandated to be used on all the things?

[bzzzt]

> How could you possibly loose a monitor power cord? In a 'flex' office environment where people are regularly relocating I expect lots of people missing small stuff like cables.

> I can certainly see the cord getting crimped by furniture and damaged under the weight of the feet of desks or chair legs. And yet I've never seen such a damaged chord.

> it's about the environment and the e-waste that these company's products generate because while they could be more user upgradable and repairable like the old Macs were the people still upgrade and use No one in their right mind would want to be dependent on hardware running toward the end of the bell curve for anything 'mission critical'. Also, why do you think those SSD modules are removable? Probably saves you quite a lot when one dies since you don't have to replace the logic board.

[newaccount74]

It's often useful to be able to replace a power cord with a longer one -- depending on your setup the standard 2m cord might be too short. Extension cables are pretty unsightly, especially with big grounded plugs like the Schuko plug we have in Austria.

It's also useful in some setups to use power cords with right-angled connectors, because they make cable management easier.

Also, moving to another country is easier with standard sockets: just get a couple of new power cables from any random hardware store and you're good to go!

[oblio]

> A non-removable power cord has a big advantage: it's hard to lose it.

Lose??? The power cord for a big monitor???

The mental gymnastics are amazing! Good old Stevie J., now turned zombie, still projecting the distortion field.

[linspace]

The Emperor of Mankind [1], the most powerful psyker ever, still protecting humanity from the forces of Chaos 10000 years after his death.

[1] https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind

[pfortuny]

Not trying to nitpick. Probably the parent might have meant “forget it when moving the monitor to a different place”. This happens more often than one may think once you have trashed the box the monitor came in.

But yes, it is a bit strange to write it down as an “advantage”.

[oblio]

Those cables are standard and a dime a dozen.

Well, they are a dime a dozen now, because Apple hasn't gotten their paws on them fully :-)

[thawaya3113]

It was probably easier for them to be more libre than less during early development. This has often been the case with Apple products.

Don’t worry. They will lock it down.

[amelius]

Yes, they will lock it down. Hopefully not by blowing some fuses in previously sold devices ...

[Tagbert]

People have been proclaiming that for years. “Just wait, Apple will only let you install their software on their machines. It’s going to happen soon. Anytime.”