[mbubb]

some years back I worked on a project with Korean Air on exactly that topic, cockpit communication and honorifics... A compounding factor was that pilots and crew often came from military backgrounds.

I learned about a number of air disasters and PanAm/KLM crash[1] in Tenerife 1977 really stuck with me. In the transcript a Dutch pilot says something like "We are now at take off" when he was indicating that the plane was in the process of taking off. (an idiomatic way of expression)

There was already much stress on the situation as an incident at another airport caused massive traffic rearrangement across Europe. Under stress we revert to native ways of expression. I tried to keep this incident in the back of my mind throughout the project, and since...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

edit - include the transcrpt: https://tailstrike.com/database/27-march-1977-klm-4805/

[tomatowurst]

What is really maddening about Korean neo-confucian society is this automatic social hierarchy based on your age, as if to suggest someone who is older than you is automatically infallible and has authority over you. It was exported to Japan (Senpai and kōhai is a direct model of Korean sunbae, hoobae) but it doesn't seem to practice Confucianism this strictly, there really is no other countries that take it this extremely.

It reminds me of the Japanese invasion of Chosun dynasty, how the rigid military/confucian structure made communication impossible and largely allowed unopposed landings by Hideyoshi's army.

[yongjik]

> It was exported to Japan (Senpai and kōhai is a direct model of Korean sunbae, hoobae) ...

Hmm I don't exactly know which way the terms were exported, but many people blame modern Korea's ageism on colonial Japan (at least partially), where the Japanese Empire tried to run itself as grandiose military barracks and trained everyone to be subject to the social hierarchy. Rigid hierarchy and hazing was a huge problem in the Imperial Japanese military.

The Joseon dynasty (1392-1910) had numerous issues but actually ageism wasn't as prevalent. Confucian scholars regularly made friends with each other over five or ten years of age difference. (You may think "so what?" but that pretty much never happens among students in modern Korea.)

Also, one reason that Joseon allowed Japanese landing at the start of the invasion of 1592 was that that division of the navy was led by Won Gyun, one of the worst admirals in Korea's history. Shortly after the war began he ordered his own fleet burned and ran away.

(Later, the legendary Yi Sunshin was imprisoned after being framed by Japanese espionage, and Won became the commander again. He then sailed the whole Korean fleet into a death trap at the battle of Chilcheonnyang, losing almost the entire fleet. Won ran away and likely died. We don't know exactly what happened to him.)

[tomatowurst]

Confucianism and ageism existed far before the 19th century, the fact is that Chosun dynasty was the result of a military coup when the general tasked with attacking a weakened the neighbor Yuan dynasty (China) struggled to maintain legitimacy and thus forced upon a new state religion called Confucianism that ousted Buddhism. It was under this system rigid hierarchies regarding one's class, education, ageism were enforced. You can see the difference from the earlier Korean kingdoms like Silla that imported and cultivated Buddhism leading to female rulers and greater tolerance for "LGBT".

Chosun was rife with corruption, rigid social hierarchy except through state examinations one could join the ranks based on skill and stability. It was very stable because of the oppressive social hierarchy based on neo-confucian ideals. The royalty were corrupt and immoral (with the exception of Sejong who created the Korean alphabet) and the last Chosun queen herself spent most of the state's treasury on luxury goods.

Not many missed the Chosun dynasty, well apart from North Korea which introduced many of its traditions (punishing 3 family generations of state designated criminals is from this era), ageism, caste, oppression of women, sexual minorities and male chauvinism. In fact Japan's colonialism brought more equality and ended caste system with meritocracy. Any modern claims of "collaborators" or such are moot, because it was a failed monarchy state and Korea simply was without any political direction.

Korea's success is economic success is largely owed to the Japan (the first capital investments and transfer of technology was from Japan to normalize relations) and its imperial economic system of zaibatsu (chaebol) and the 5-year economic plan that the strongman Park Chung Hee used was straight out of Manchukuo.

anyways just rambling on here as I eat pistachios about my understanding of korean history as an outsider on a friday evening.

y'all have a good weekend.

[kevin_thibedeau]

It isn't based on individual age. I know Korean cousins with a 20 year age difference where the younger one gets the honorific because his lineage is older and he's an earlier generation. They never speak Korean with each other.

[tomatowurst]

> It isn't based on individual age.

It is. you are using a special anecdotal case in a family situation (that same person would use honorifics towards their friends who are much older) to negate the rest of Korean society that uses one's age to decide who is above and below you, and the necessary honorifics. DK effect is quite laughable to see from a non-Korean.

I invite you to address your professor or sunbae or the elderly without honorifics and see their reaction. You wouldn't be able to use your race card very long.

[bmitc]

From my vast expertise (sarcasm) from watching Kpop, Korean variety shows, and Korean movies, the whole age thing is pretty rampant and adhered to, at least from those lenses. I mean, they have literal discussions while shooting regarding asking direct ages in order to speak "familiar" or not. It is pretty weird and arbitrary, especially with the way Koreans measure age.

[tomatowurst]

those media you consume are a reflection of society. koreans use honorifics with strangers until they signal they wish to communicate casually and usually its completely subjective. somebody will only differ by mere months and demand you use honorifics (bullying). somebody will differ by few years and do not enforce it. its completely subjective and adds to the stress of interaction between strangers.

[robocat]

As a low-ranking middle aged average white guy from a small 1st world country: if I go to Korea can I get a status boost?

I have seen low-rank white dudes get status upgrades in other Asian countries for a variety of reasons. One architect told me how he was hanging with high status Indonesians, and how he could name-drop NZ politicians (for example, the minister of finance) because our culture means low-rank citizens can personally know people in high-rank positions. Perhaps I can manipulate the Korean status game in my favour because my background is somewhat unmeasurable.

[tomatowurst]

No, they have a label for someone who tries to do what you described, they are called 루저벡홈 or literally "Losers back home", or typically a white person that uses their racial status exactly in the manner you described.

It might have worked in the 60s or in South East Asia but certainly will not work anymore in East Asia, especially in a hyper connected world. In fact many foreigners who achieved celebrity status by lying were quickly cancelled.

By large, a non-asian person in East Asia is largely limited to an exotic animal at the zoo. Somewhat of a novelty for kids and adults to point and laugh "wow! we have foreigners in our country speaking our language".

You would see the same response towards a monkey suddenly speaking Korean or Japanese.

[X6S1x6Okd1st]

You'd exist largely outside of the neo confucianist status structure. You'd be a foreigner in a way that is hard to understand if you've spent all your life in the heterogeneous melting pots.

I'm many cases this would apply even if you are Korean but grew up outside the hierarchy (i.e. grew up in the US)

You'd have some status as a us citizen as a white person, but it's complicated and a double edged sword

[beachy]

A better place to get a status upgrade could be the UK. A New Zillund accent doesnt really slot in anywhere in particular in the Brit class system so you are granted a kind of free pass while they work out your abilities. (Experience from last century - may have changed!).

[numpad0]

If it's same as senpai/kouhai system I'm familiar with, it only works in an organization, and either you'll carry your batch number/generation ID/year joined in that org, or you're out of the system as an age-free subject matter expert.

[spacemanmatt]

Heck of an admission, there.