[speeder]

As someone living in a country that had a democratic leader toppled down by NATO Aircraft carrier threatening to bomb our most populous city at the time... I disagree with you.

I am sure people in Iraq (that had nothing to do with 11 of September and had no mass destruction weapons), Libyan negros (that were hunted down and their city razed with NATO air support) and many, many others would agree with me.

It is not even a matter of blaming only USA that drags the rest of NATO with them, Libya for example the country that started the shenanigans was France.

Then there are the aggressive actions of individual NATO members that are ignored by the rest of the alliance, like Turkey bombing Armenians using drones until Russia stepped in.

[qsort]

What exactly are you disagreeing on?

There is no such thing as a "NATO Aircraft carrier". NATO is an alliance. NATO does not declare war as a block. Iraq was not a NATO operation. Libya was not a NATO operation.

The only time NATO has intervened outside of self defense as per Article V of the Charter was Yugoslavia (and with good fucking reason).

[scotty79]

So NATO members are still free to do what they want without casting any shade on NATO itself?

Could France just deploy it's army in the Ukraine and push out Russian occupiers saying "don't worry we are not NATO, we are here privately" and Russia would have to accept that and hold no additional grudge against NATO, knowing that if it retaliates it will trigger article 5?

I don't in any way condone what Russia is doing and I wish that invasion on Ukraine will safely end with NATO having a parade on Red Square and demilitarization of Russia.

I'm just arguing that you can't pretend that labels and formalities is all than counts when things start happening.

[dragonwriter]

> Could France just deploy it's army in the Ukraine and push out Russian occupiers saying "don't worry we are not NATO, we are here privately" and Russia would have to accept that and hold no additional grudge against NATO, knowing that if it retaliates it will trigger article 5?

Russia can hold all the grudges it likes, with or without any kind of justification.

Not that it matters to the international legitimacy of France (or even NATO, without Article 5 being triggered) directly militarily supporting Ukraine’s self-defense against Russian aggression, see UN Charter, Article 51.

[qsort]

> So NATO members are still free to do what they want without casting any shade on NATO itself?

I condemn the vast majority of the US foreign policy of the last 50+ years, I'm just pointing out that conflating US/NATO is a convenient parlor trick and irrelevant whataboutism.

> Could France

This scenario wouldn't trigger Article 5.

[dragonwriter]

> This scenario wouldn't trigger Article 5.

That... depends on the precise geographic location of any retaliation. The participation of a NATO state in a collective self-defense action with a non-NATO state under UN Charter Article 51 rights, outside of NATO operations, does not itself limit the applicability of Article 5.

And even if it didn't trigger Article 5, well, most NATO actions have been initiated as a result of Article 4 process, not Article 5 commitments. And an attack on a member’s forces in the Euro-Atlantic region but outside of the precise area covered by Article 5 commitments would arguably be a more serious Article 4 issue than the ones that have resulted in NATO interventions.

[scotty79]

> This scenario wouldn't trigger Article 5.

Really? Does it have to be unprovoked attack? And what exactly means unprovoked? Does having a peace mission in some neighbouring country and defending yourself there counts as provocation? Who decides that? And do you think that the definition that would be most geopolitically convenient at that moment wouldn't be chosen?

[qsort]

> Who decides that? And do you think that the definition that would be most geopolitically convenient at that moment wouldn't be chosen?

Oh absolutely it would.

The Charter is just a lot of verbiage around two promises: NATO members will defend each other, and NATO won't wage aggressive war.

If you are so inclined you can also doubt Article 5 itself: are we really going to unleash the apocalypse over Latvia? Wouldn't we be tempted to bend the rules in that case as well?

The point is whether you believe those promises to be credible. IMHO history implies they largely are, but that's something reasonable people can disagree on.

[dragonwriter]

> NATO members will defend each other, and NATO won't wage aggressive war.

Article 4 is also important, and more actual NATO interventions have been triggered by Article 4 consultations than Article 5 direct mutual defense.

NATO is a regional security organization with a mutual defense commitment, not a pure defensive alliance.

[speeder]

Right, so when Iraq was invaded by:

USA, UK, Australia, Poland, Netherlands, Italy and Spain (and Turkey threatened to invade in 2007 too), the fact they are all members of NATO is just coincidence, it is not NATO piling up on a single country.

Or Afghanistan:

US, UK, Canada, Germany, Australia, Italy, New Zealand

or Libya, france gave them weapons first, and invited the rest of NATO, that responded:

Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Romania, Spain, Turkey, USA, UK.

NATO can claim to be defensive and only about article 5, but the fact remains NATO will happily use their forces offensively and working in a cohesive group. You can't just say it isn't NATO because NATO is supposed to be defensive.

[dragonwriter]

> USA, UK, Australia, Poland, Netherlands, Italy and Spain (and Turkey threatened to invade in 2007 too), the fact they are all members of NATO is just coincidence, it is not NATO piling up on a single country.

Australia isn't a member of NATO (neither is New Zealand, which you claim at another point), and there were NATO members opposed to the invasion; NATO works by consensus, but isn't a supergovernment that dictates the outside-of-NATO foreign policy of its members.

> NATO can claim to be defensive and only about article 5

It could, but it actually doesn't.

It claims to be a regional security organization, and Article 4 is just as important as Article 5.

[BuckRogers]

If you know your history, you'd know that 9/11 triggered NATO's Article 5. It's the only time it was activated so far.

NATO kept us out of nuclear war for 70 years. It kept Soviet tanks from overrunning western Europe. It enabled stable democracies to gain a foothold safely in western Europe.

NATO is literally the only thing that stands between democratic states, which are the minority in the world (the North Atlantic region + some small states in Asia) and totalitarian regimes.

Mysteriously, a non-NATO nation is currently having a genocidal war waged on them. While NATO nations are free and safe. NATO is keeping the Free World safe.

If you hate freedom and representative government, if you find debates "too messy" and like easy-answer dictatorships, you should be anti-NATO.

[mongol]

Australia is not part of Nato. And you could equally well count in France and Germany as opposing the Iraq war, but it would not support your case.

[dragonwriter]

> Libya was not a NATO operation.

Are you sure?

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/71679.htm

[CapricornNoble]

>>>There is no such thing as a "NATO Aircraft carrier".

I just interpret that as "aircraft carrier belonging to a NATO member state".

>>>Iraq was not a NATO operation.

And yet there is very significant overlap of Multi-National Forces- Iraq countries with NATO member states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93...

>>>Libya was not a NATO operation.

Have you taken a look at the Wiki article on that conflict? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_...

A couple of choice quotes: On 19 March 2011, a multi-state NATO-led coalition began a military intervention in Libya

24 March 2011: In telephone negotiations, French foreign minister Alain Juppé agreed to let NATO take over all military operations on 29 March at the latest

I'm always amazed at the number of emphatically stated positions regarding recent geopolitics/warfare/etc. that are so easily challenged with a 30-second internet search.

[qsort]

> I just interpret that as "aircraft carrier belonging to a NATO member state".

US != NATO

> very significant overlap

ah yes the overlap

> On 19 March 2011, a multi-state NATO-led coalition began a military intervention in Libya

You must have forgotten to paste the text after the comma, let us retry together:

On 19 March 2011, a multi-state NATO-led coalition began a military intervention in Libya, to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, in response to events during the First Libyan Civil War. With ten votes in favour and five abstentions, the UN Security Council's intent was to have "an immediate ceasefire in Libya, including an end to the current attacks against civilians, which it said might constitute “crimes against humanity” ... [imposing] a ban on all flights in the country's airspace — a no-fly zone — and tightened sanctions on the [Muammar] Qadhafi regime and its supporters.

I'm always amazed at the number of snarky know-it-all positions regarding recent geopolitics/warfare/etc. that are based on conveniently projecting away inconvenient pieces of information.

[femiagbabiaka]

Yes.. the U.S. is not NATO.. it just funds NATO more than any other member state, provides more troops to NATO than any other member state, provides arms more than any other member state, and NATO has never taken an action that works against the geopolitical interest of the U.S. But of course, they're completely separate entities. The Warsaw Pact was also famously not a mission by the SU, it was just a defensive treaty that happened to include them! A hegemon founding and funding a military alliance has no impact on that alliance, and all members of military alliances have equal rights under the treaty.

This is so much the case that until the invasion of Ukraine, France and other NATO members states were saying that Article 5 was effectively unenforceable for any member state save the U.S!

[jamie_ca]

> Yes.. the U.S. is not NATO.. it just funds NATO more than any other member state, provides more troops to NATO than any other member state, provides arms more than any other member state

They also have more of a population base than any other member state (4x Germany, 4.8x UK, 5x France...)

[femiagbabiaka]

Agreed, this is part of the historical reason why the U.S. is a global leader (arguably it's really the land mass of the country that's the important part but same same)

[mardifoufs]

The last part of your comment is pretty ironic. You realize that a UN resolution has absolutely nothing to do with NATO being a defensive alliance? It does not matter if they were "mandated" to attack a country that did not attack them first, it is still by definition agression. A defensive alliance would imply a reaction to an attack on your alliance, not on anything else.

If NATO only needs whatever vote it deems necessary to attack a completely uninvolved country because of a completely internal conflict, you realize that literally proves that it is not the type of neighbor you want to have?

What a completely self defeating argument lol. And that's ignoring the totally defensive strikes against serbia. Which for the record I personally think were justified, but supporting an intervention does not mean the intervention suddenly becomes defensive.

[epolanski]

All nato countries fought in iraq I think.

[VictorPath]

Operation Unified Protector in Libya was not a NATO operation? Huh? It was completely a NATO operation.

(I could tangent into Russia...)

[throw_5202]

> like Turkey bombing Armenians using drones until Russia stepped in

It was Azerbaijan using drones procured from Turkey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war

Anyway NATO is not a single state. NATO members can make independent decisions other NATO members would disapprove.

[emptysongglass]

> Then there are the aggressive actions of individual NATO members that are ignored by the rest of the alliance, like Turkey bombing Armenians using drones until Russia stepped in.

Those countries are doing it under their own auspices. You seem to be confusing a defensive alliance with a federalized government.

> As someone living in a country that had a democratic leader toppled down by NATO Aircraft carrier threatening to bomb our most populous city at the time... I disagree with you.

You need to be explicit if you want to argue in good faith here.

[giraffe_lady]

> You need to be explicit if you want to argue in good faith here.

They absolutely do not. The military aggression of nato countries against weaker ones is well documented. They have killed, organized coups, waged war, and assassinated elected leaders for their own economic and political goals.

If you're going to argue that every single one of these was merely a country that happened to be part of nato, acting independently, then do it. It's not anyone's responsibility to lob you a specific case that you can try to shoot down on its specific details, and refusing to (proactively!?) do so does not indicate a bad faith argument come on.

[kodah]

NATO countries don't act in coordination. With respect to Iraq:

> On 5 February 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell appeared before the UN to present evidence that Iraq was hiding unconventional weapons. However, Powell's presentation included information based on the claims of Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, codenamed "Curveball", an Iraqi emigrant living in Germany who later admitted that his claims had been false. Powell also presented evidence alleging Iraq had ties to al-Qaeda. As a follow-up to Powell's presentation, the United States, the United Kingdom, Poland, Italy, Australia, Denmark, Japan, and Spain proposed a resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq, but NATO members like Canada, France, and Germany, together with Russia, strongly urged continued diplomacy. Facing a losing vote as well as a likely veto from France and Russia, the US, the UK, Poland, Spain, Denmark, Italy, Japan, and Australia eventually withdrew their resolution.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

> It's not anyone's responsibility to lob you a specific case that you can try to shoot down on its specific details, and refusing to (proactively!?) do so does not indicate a bad faith argument come on.

I think that depends on why you show up in forums. If your goal is to learn and grow by sharing experiences backed by data then I think it's important to be specific. If you just show up to "make your voice heard" or make grifting comments, then yeah it doesn't matter that much.

[emptysongglass]

A defensive alliance is what it says on the tin. If you want to take umbrage with the aggressions of any individual country, by all means do so. But don't turn NATO into your own personal bogeyman because one of its members did a thing you didn't like irrelevant to the mandate of the alliance. That's a bad faith argument.

If I make a promise that I won't punch you and you go punch someone else, that doesn't reflect on my promise not to punch you.

If that aircraft carrier was acting under NATO's auspices it is absolutely relevant to the argument. If it wasn't then it is a strawman and should be called out.

[kingofpandora]

What it says on the tin might not be what's inside.

[BuckRogers]

You didn't cite your sources in massive claims but yes it's disingenuous to apply individual nation's actions on NATO. NATO is a defensive alliance. They did go to war in the mideast after the US was attacked on 9/11, triggering Article 5.

As far as mideast wars in general, most of them, especially from the 60s to 90s, were proxy wars between democratic states and totalitarian regimes. Whether it be Iran or another one. The mideast is a powder keg in general though, I wouldn't use that region's history, or any party's involvement as a guide for much of anything in regards to your views.

It's amazing to see people on both the left and right oppose NATO. 63 Republicans voted against supporting NATO yesterday, which is just astonishing and short-sighted. That is not the GOP that I once supported, they are lost. NATO is what prevented nuclear war for 70 years. Protected Europe so it could thrive into the healthy democratic states they are today. Prevented Soviet tanks from rolling in.

Especially today, when a non-NATO nation is under attack, and would not be, if it were in NATO. The whole Trump and far left anti-NATO viewpoints were absolutely blown out of the water. It's not even a debate anymore. Western expansion was the correct move as the mask is now off of Putin's Russia.

If you hate free and sovereign states, and like dictators building empires and committing genocide to do it- being against NATO is for you. The story today is the Free World consisting of democratic states vs totalitarianism / authoritarianism / dictatorships. That includes Putin's right-wing government, and Xi's left wing Communist government.