[mc32]

Unfortunately these episodes of history currently sit in the crossfire of propaganda from both sides, some will claim it's current Russian propaganda to minimize its significance and the Russians will claim this is an outsized broken promise that excuses their behavior.

The US has been incapable of putting ourselves in the shoes of a has-been empire, so when Russia sees expansion as a threat, we can't fathom what their fuss is about. But if you look at it from Russia's perspective, as a post Soviet Empire that is in severe retreat and is beset on many fronts, one can begin to understand some of their PoV, especially given the Syria-Ukraine-Caucasus entanglement stoked by Obama. Obviously a cretin like Putin takes all this as personal affront on behalf of all Slavs and results in this disaster.

[spupe]

Exactly. It bothers me immensely that we cannot have an adult conversation about topics such as these, because people who only have a superficial understanding try to pick a certain phrase or argument as proof that you are on "the other side". It's actually part of the problem of why we cannot have reasonable public opinion a the moment, as journalists and intellectuals have also adopted this way of thinking.

[TheCoelacanth]

It's not the US's fault that Russia's past imperial subjects are now seeking protection from Russia in NATO.

[vkou]

Parts of the US are able to put itself in those shoes. The DOS isn't staffed by morons, it fully understands why Russia felt threatened by encirclement, even if the press didn't.

It pursued that direction anyways, because what (aside from nuclear war) is the worst that could happen..?

(A full invasion of Ukraine, as it turns out is the worst thing that can happen - so far. But that's no sweat off the backs of anyone on this side of the Atlantic.)

[mc32]

I think those people exist, but they don't have much influence or defer to more bellicose factions within. Another ironically "great" example was the Iraq war. Who the hell let that go though and then not leak that the words coming out of the mouths of the higher ups were pure bulls--t. "Greeted with flowers, alright".

Now, where are these people, why don't they pipe up and tell us that they told the higher ups what would happen but got ignored? Why can't we be honest that we made a grave mistake in this case?

[MrMan]

no more both-sides propaganda please. one side attacked and is committing genocidal destruction of Ukraine, not the so-called other side.

if all Russia wanted was Donbas they could just go here, take it, and eject the ethnic Ukrainians if they like, and steal the resources and territory instead of paying for them. Instead they go all-in on destroying as much of the country as possible before they most likely retreat to a relatively small region in the east, which I think was the original objective.

Russia chose to commit this massive crime, no one else.

[mc32]

I'm not excusing Russian atrocities. We're looking at what enabled this trajectory. Lack of introspection leads to more stupid actions. If France and Britain hadn't demanded the extraction of wealth from WWI losers, lots of things would have fallen differently in history. That does not in any way excuse any of the action taken by any of the actors who made their own choices.

But we have to be careful of what stages we are setting up. another example is the "Mujahudeen". Yes, convenient thorn in the Soviets' ambitions but they would come back to haunt us. It's still their fault for their acts of terror, but we also gave them "life" by setting up the stage for them.

[nkingsy]

I was very confused why Russia felt the need to meddle in US politics reading coverage of 2016.

If we look at the timeline, US signaling intent to expand nato lines up perfectly with Russia’s belligerence, and it’s not exactly subtle.

Putin more or less said “we won’t stand for this” at the time.

Perhaps it is a lack of empathy as implied by the parent comment, but that seems surprisingly oblivious.