[uncomputation]

Say you’re a father. You need to support your family, and there’s an Amazon Fulfillment Center in town. It pays a whole dollar an hour better than the local fruit packing warehouse, which is a huge difference. Amazon is providing me a valuable opportunity!

Except now, I’m working myself to the bone trying to fulfill my package counts, peeing in bottles, shitting in bags, constantly stressed about if I can not only meet my quotas, but beat everyone else on the floor with me so that I can get more hours next time. I get back from work miserable, stressed, and probably angry from the constant competition needed to just survive. But this is a valuable opportunity, surely, except for the fact that I’m constantly stressed about work, and now I can’t even complain about how I’m stressed about work because Amazon won’t allow me to have my phone on the floor or say the word “restroom” in their internal chat app.

Oh but right, as you say, it’s a worker-favorable economy! Let me go to packing warehouse and try and get even fifty cents closer to Amazon with the leverage I obviously have. I’m sure the guy there is gonna say no problem, here’s a raise.

This is the lesson that we already learned in the 1800s with monopolies; they distort reality. It’s useless to argue “if you don’t want to work for them, don’t” because they often pay just better than your local alternatives, but by virtue of their economy bending power, they will exert an insane amount of control and influence until they are either regulated or there is no competition left and I don’t even have the fruit packing warehouse anymore, but the Amazon Oranges Fulfillment Center.

[eftychis]

These working conditions should simply be illegal in the U.S. (and the countries it is not already). There is no way around that. If society doesn't demand that then good luck to all of us. I am simply surprised again and again people haven't "broken" and keep putting up with this.

[Jasper_]

Yes, it should be illegal. Some of them were once upon a time. But businesses keep lobbying saying that conditions like these are hurting their ability to retain profits, and the laws tend to get clawed back under the pretense of "job creation". Amazon fights tooth and nail to not have to pay the externalities of their terrible working conditions, and stop people organizing to make their workplace better.

[pmoriarty]

"businesses keep lobbying saying that conditions like these are hurting their ability to retain profits"

There are also plenty of ideologues in Washington who bristle at the mention of regulation, unions, and anything they don't deem as being "pro business".

[eftychis]

(General question, I agree with your statement above.) How is it pro business to ensure that employees -- a major stakeholder in businesses don't want to stay there? This historically, doesn't end well, right?

This is beyond splitting profits; it's driving back to Victorian era, and that did not end well for businesses. Increase in unemployment is just a sign.

[heavyset_go]

> I am simply surprised again and again people haven't "broken" and keep putting up with this.

Rates of deaths of despair suggest that people have broken, they just don't have the leverage to significantly change things.

[mistermann]

My understanding is that people voted for this, that's what I'm told anyways.

[waterhouse]

If the conditions are that bad, are they really worth the extra dollar per hour? Seems like the fruit packing warehouse is a better choice for most people. Worse employment conditions will always come with a pay premium under competition.

[kelnos]

Some people don't really have a choice; that extra dollar each hour might mean housing or food security. And, say, a parent in a household might think that's the trade off they have to make: they're horrifyingly miserable, but their spouse and kids get to be better off.

But that's a trade off no one should have to make: it's messed up that we as a society allow this state of affairs to exist in the first place.

And yet here I am, not canceling my Prime membership, because I suck. But hell, if Prime cost 2x what it currently does, and that got the workers involved good working conditions, I would still pay it. Not sure how many people would, though.

[umanwizard]

> And yet here I am, not canceling my Prime membership, because I suck.

I genuinely don’t understand. You have already argued that despite shitty conditions at Amazon, some people are desperate enough for money that the alternative (making less with better working conditions) is even worse. So if enough people cancelled their Amazon subscriptions that they had to scale back operations, wouldn’t those people be worse off than they are now?

[calvinmorrison]

Depends how badly you need that dollar.

[dh2022]

I worked lots of minimum wage jobs. None of my co-workers would have peed in bottles / shit in bags / stress themselves out for 1 more dollar / hour. Me neither.

[xyzzyz]

Your first hand experience here doesn't matter. You must listen to and believe the stories repeated by wealthy techies, who do not know a single person who ever worked an Amazon warehouse job, and likely don't know a person who worked a minimum wage job either.

[sitkack]

Times change. That was you then, not you now or your coworkers now.

[dh2022]

Like the person above you mentioned: "we seem to be in a worker-favorable economy". Nobody would do what you said for another dollar per hour. I worked lots of minimum wage jobs and none of my co-workers would have shit in bags, pee in bottle for another dollar / hour. Please keep the conversation at an intelligent level.

[gruez]

>This is the lesson that we already learned in the 1800s with monopolies; they distort reality. It’s useless to argue “if you don’t want to work for them, don’t” because they often pay just better than your local alternatives, but by virtue of their economy bending power, they will exert an insane amount of control and influence until they are either regulated or there is no competition left and I don’t even have the fruit packing warehouse anymore, but the Amazon Oranges Fulfillment Center.

Amazon is nowhere near a monopoly (or monopsony), at least when it comes to employers.

[notch656a]

Even as a homeless person showing up with drug addicts while waking up from a ditch, I found opportunities less demeaning than Amazon. If my only option was truly amazon, as a father, I would send my family to go live in the 3rd world and remit enough for them to live on while I live under a tarp rather than work full time at amazon again.

Amazon is 10% of retail and retail is only a slice of the economy. If you can't find an alternative to amazon, you aren't looking.