[aroundtown]

I made the mistake and told the truth one time early in my career.

I got fired, err... I wasn't retained after a multi-month temp period, and was brought in to be fired, then exit interviewed.

I was upset, but stuck to the truth. My direct boss was passive aggressive, didn't like me, and excluded me from the team. His code was awful, in the long term wasn't maintainable, and wouldn't be able to meet the needs of the road map because of poor design decisions. Some cliques had formed to the determent of the tiny company.

Unfortunately after that exit interview, it became extremely difficult for me to get work in that community. Unknown to me at the time, I made an enemy of my direct boss, who had much deeper connections with that area tech community than I ever could have imagined. I only found out after making friends with someone else who told me they had heard nothing but bad things about me.

It was a lesson learned. After a many years, and a move, it is no longer a problem, but it derailed me for quite a while.

[karaterobot]

It should have been HR that interviewed you, and your direct boss should not have been given specific information that would make them hold a grudge about anything you said. Sounds like that company has some issues.

[anm89]

What does "should" mean here? You seem to be implying that there is exactly one correct way to handle this which there is broad consensus on.

If so where can i go read the rule book for the correct answers on all of managing people for all human endeavors?

It reminds me of people who are convinced that there is one true way to do "agile" and that every one who disagrees is somehow subjectively wrong because some blog post from some guy who went to some meeting 40 years ago kind of agrees with them.

Ok. Good luck with that.

[e-clinton]

HR typically conducts the exit interviews as they are a neutral party. It’s common sense as to why your boss shouldn’t do it... you know, since the feedback people have is often about their boss.

If you’re looking for the book of these basic rules, maybe take an HR class?

[maxerickson]

HR works for the company, they aren't a neutral party.

I think your meaning isn't far off, the company stands to benefit from an informative interview.

[stainforth]

It's obvious that they're making a point that there is never going to be an ideal realized... and so to speak otherwise is playing a part, and naturally would be called out.

[argc]

I think you have to try to avoid the situations you described, but I think 99% of the time, bad mouthing someone who is toxic is not going to have these far-reaching negative effects. I have done it in many exit interviews and its never bitten me. I obviously do not ask for references from terrible managers who I bad-mouth in exit interviews, rather I ask for references from strong leaders who I can honestly speak glowingly about and who I develop close relationships with. I think you shouldn't be afraid to speak the truth in most cases and if you've developed a reputation as a good employee who others like to work with, many times the information you provide will be taken seriously. It probably won't be acted upon unless others report the same thing, but I still find it worthwhile. It at least gives them the opportunity to do the right thing.

[bsnnkv]

I feel like people like this are fair game for naming and shaming.

[Ancalagon]

Disagree. You can ask in private but DOXXing somebody via HN/Reddit hivemind is a no-go without proper evidence. 1 anecdote does not suffice in this case (sorry OP, I do believe you though)

[cipheredStones]

Setting aside the question of whether this is ethically good/okay, how does this count as doxxing? You're not de-identifying a pseudonymous person, or publishing private info like a home address, you're just saying something about a guy on the internet.

[brailsafe]

Does this amount to doxxing though? Naming someone or a company in a public forum is one thing, posting their home address and phone number is different

[Ancalagon]

what if that person has a particularly identifiable name? It wouldnt be hard to guess who it was in that case by searching for their name on LinkedIn, noting their geographic history, and guessing at which (tech or otherwise) companies the manager has worked at.

What's more, a common name might mean multiple people get harassed via that same method due to poor detective skills.

[ceph_]

Using someone's name in a story is not doxxing. Just stop.

[brailsafe]

Well then... don't harass people. Saying "My manager Brad really fucked me and the team over with his self-serving decision-making, putting me in a really bad spot which ended up costing me my job, and then negatively influenced my subsequent job search by bulshitting about me to his friends" seems pretty reasonable.

I'm not in the business of calling people out to shame them, but I sure as hell would like to know who sucks at managing at specific companies so I don't accidentally work for them.

[KoftaBob]

Not to nitpick, but I think the term you're looking for is "Doxxing".

[ukulele]

DOS = denial of service

[Ancalagon]

Thanks updated

[mLuby]

Right. Might open the poster up to libel litigation too, which AFAIK means you'd have to prove the accusation's truth.

[elzbardico]

No. Use this energy in the next elections to make sure you get to elect representatives that create at least a modicum of decent federal legislation to protect workers against such things, and more importantly, to make it financially feasible for workers to sue when their rights are infringed.

[unfocussed_mike]

They are and that will make it even worse.

[afterburner]

Sounds like the other person has more power in the "community" though, and a grudge against them.

[ianai]

What’s the long term story for that startup and boss? Any further success or failure?

A few big tricks to learn in career maturity involve how to get along in situations where there may be some toxic or even just unhelpful factors. Figure out how to be unthreatening and work with or beside cliques. Figure out how to work around technical problems without making enemies. Etc. Also be sure to draw lines that don’t limit you too much nor let you come to harm.

And don’t say jack in an exit interview.

[aroundtown]

A little backstory, then update.

Unknown to me at the time, boss had independently made a widget that was responsible for a sizable portion of the profit for this company. He was in the process of selling the widget to the company.

I was hired during a company expansion as a domain expert for a new product category in which they were developing. I was placed initially under boss to learn the company ropes.

There were a few odd things about the job, I was frequently not invited to team/company functions, outings, lunches, nor meetings. Being told by my boss that I needed to earn the right to go to these things, and I hadn't earned it yet, or that the meetings didn't concern me. The boss assigned me work on his widget, and generally left me alone. My desk wasn't in the same area as the rest of the team. I was put in new office space with the other people that started when I did. Even after space with my team opened up I was required to work in the temp area. I had to provide my own laptop and lamp for the first month while employed as the company as they hadn't procured me one. Yes, lamp, I didn't have overhead lighting in my area, as they planned to put in a skylight, it never materialized. Instead of moving on to the development phase of the task I was hired to do, I ended up taking support tasks, like calls, emails, writing docs, etc. (I chalked it up to needing to learn the system, but I was being paid triple what they were paying help desk staff) Also wasn't given write access to their code repository, I had to submit patches to my boss.

When I was let go, the owner and vp over boss brought up how they thought I wasn't a team player as I wasn't attending any company events. I needed to get my external affairs in order because I kept having outside engagements keeping me from work. Dumbfounded by these accusations I showed them I'd come to work everyday, attended every meeting I'd been invited and explained I often felt left out when the team got to go to outside events (from stuff like ice cream to pro ball games). After showing all my emails and schedule it came to light that my boss was never inviting me to these events and was giving them made up excuses for me.

As for the code, it was bad. Broken in very fundamental ways. I gave the code a fair eval during my exit. Explained how it's design flaws wouldn't allow them to expand the widget much beyond it's current abilities and showed how it was incompatible with their long term road map.

In the end I had no leverage, so I wasn't retained.

--- The update. ---

6 months after of my departure, a third of the company was gone. Everybody that was part of the expansion had left or was fired, and several other people took better jobs elsewhere.

Eventually they hired a few new developers to take over the widget. After a couple of years, a new version was released with new code base, but it was now late to the market and better products replaced it.

The owner eventually bought out the widget from my boss in order to sell the company, many years after I left. The majority of the staff at that point transitioned with the notable exception of my boss. He retired, I think he fishes now.

As for me, well, I had a couple of rough years there were I wasn't getting hired. Thought it was bad luck, but through some chance encounters I've came to learn that someone was spreading some bad info about me. I got some counseling, which helped.

As for why the retaliation, I think it was because my boss lost leverage and money over the widget deal. I learned from a former coworker that my boss had been planning an exit from the company as soon as the widget deal finalized, which was supposed to happen right after I started, not years later. I think he knew his program couldn't meet the roadmap he was selling the company and was hoping to make it someone else's problem.

[cgtyoder]

Boy, that really sucks - sorry you were abused & gaslighted like that. Glad things are better now!

[throw1230]

It sounds like you weren't meeting the needs of the company either and this is all sour grapes.

If someone is not meeting the expectations or underperforming and it's not a character problem. I'd be open to working with them if they did some growing somewhere else. If however, you have this kind of attitude of blame-shifting and finger pointing without any substance to back it up, no one will want to work with you.

Your boss was right in warning his friends.

[ClumsyPilot]

"If however, you have this kind of attitude of blame-shifting and finger pointing"

They asked him whether anything is wrong, they don't get to complain about the answer.

On the other hand, for a senior person to go around town and spread rumours about a (presumably) junior team member is exactly the kind of behaviour I want nothing to do with.

This comment is miopic, seems the closer you are to the top the less maturity and aelf-control you are expected to have?

[iratewizard]

I once fired a Jr dev who lied about having done work and was generally being a salary thief. When I told him, he said he would work for free, it would never happen again, it was a misunderstanding and pleaded for his job. I told him no, so he went into the office crying to beg the founder for his job.

If someone were to ask me about hiring him, I would say in no uncertain terms that it's a mistake. I wonder, though, if he was telling his side of the story on HN, how I would have been painted as the villain.

[nopenopenopeno]

Nobody is a villain here. This is the system we all live under together. Until that changes, we are stuck with it.

That said, what is profit if not stolen value?

[iratewizard]

Profit is investment plus risk plus labor paying dividends to the entrepreneur. Go be a nutjob somewhere else.

[throw1230]

None of the feedback OP has given to HR has any substance. If you throw around heavy words like this, you better know how to back your words up.

- passive aggressive: This is a personal judgment. He was passive aggressive in what way? - excluded you from the team: How was he excluded? Was he not invited to events? Or did he not get good projects? If you are a temp with potential performance problems, it's normal that you don't get the cool projects. - code was awful: Again, is this a sentiment shared by other members of the team or is it just one junior engineer being super opinionated about something - long term maintainability: I don't think he was there for long - missing roadmap because poor design decisions: Again a junior opinion, running projects are complex with many different variables, you fail meeting deadlines for various reasons, there's never a single reason, and that reason is never "we had a bad piece of code written by one guy". I don't think OP has the historical context of that led to the that code.

When I hear all this feedback coming from a temp, all I hear is they weren't a team player, they don't know how to be diplomatic and most of the things they are saying are coming out of frustration and have no substance and is not actionable.

[ClumsyPilot]

> "- passive aggressive: This is a personal judgment... missing roadmap because poor design decisions: Again a junior opinion"

So you asked a Junior person for his opinion and you complain that you got Junior's opinion? What did you expect, to get a senior executive's opinion?

It's irrelevant if his opinions are incompetent - let's imagine he got fired for being an complete idiot. Then you asked for his opinion, and complain that it's an idiotic opinion. That means we have at least two idiots!

What in the world are these complains about negativity, is management entitled to love and loyalty from employees it fired? This sounds like a North-Korea style dictatorship, not a company.

If they are too daft to know that fired employees might provide negative feedback, or if their fragile egos can't handle it - that's their problem.

Let me make a parallel that might be clearer:

If someone comes up to me tells me I smell, that's kind of offensive.

But it if I go to someone and spesifically ask them 'do I smell', they might answer 'Yes'.

I don't get to complain that they are not a qualified perfumer, or their judgement is poor - I picked them, I asked them. And I certainly don't get to go around town telling everyone how they are a terrible person.

[detaro]

> This is a personal judgment. He was passive aggressive in what way?

It's an exit interview, so that is an excellent question for HR to ask.

> excluded you from the team: How was he excluded?

same as above.

> code was awful: Again, is this a sentiment shared by other members of the team or is it just one junior engineer being super opinionated about something

Something you can correlate with other feedback, and see if it gets mentioned repeatedly, or not.

...

But you straight out just always assume the most negative interpretation, and then come to the conclusion that your prejudice was confirmed, and support spreading that outside the company.

[throw1230]

Yeah I've managed an assumption based on what I'm seeing here. That's all the data I have.

Similarly most everyone assumed that the manager went out of his way to talk shit about him. Managers don't go around and talk shit of their employees without getting prompted. If someone asks his manager "Hey I saw you worked with aroundtown, what was your experience like" you bet the answer is going to be crystal clear.

[jallen_dot_dev]

You are sealioning with all of these questions and accusations. This isn't a trial, aroundtown doesn't need to divulge all of the evidence in order to share their anecdote here. You've made an unfair judgement without knowing them or their boss.

[throw1230]

I've made a judgment about the event with what I have read. I have no intention to bully anyone.

My point is clear, we are only reading one side of the story and I don't see an iota of maturity in the story he described. Therefore I also don't believe that his manager called everyone in the town to tell them not to hire him. We don't even know the feedback was sent out to his manager.

Maybe the other employers figured out on their own or maybe they asked his manager for a reference.

[hluska]

And again, this isn’t a trial and aroundtown doesn’t have to share all their evidence. Why not just take it as an anecdote and leave it? You’ve repeated this theme enough now that it sure seems like bullying. Would you just let it go?

[selcuka]

I guess the main point is they were exit interviewed by the HR, but then the conversation was leaked to their direct manager. That's a no-no regardless of the OP was right in their accusations or not.

[stavros]

Except aroundtown expressed their opinion to HR when asked, and the boss went around badmouthing them around town. Only one of the two is the asshole here.

[throw1230]

Nah man, exit interviews aren't to express opinions or talk shit, it's a data source for HR to identify problems emerging as patterns and improve their org/company.

One guy saying "my boss sucked" isn't really feedback

[analog31]

For this to work, employees have to trust that they can be candid without repercussions. And employees don't have access to the inner workings of the business that they work for, but know that there are similarities across businesses. For this reason, the conduct of an exit interview is governed by the widespread behavior of similar businesses, as communicated by workers among one another, and not by the company. If things like exit interviews are widely abused, then they become useless.

[stavros]

I didn't say it was useful feedback, I said they asked him his opinion and they got it. Badmouthing him around town for it is completely uncalled for.

[throw1230]

Eh we don't really know what happened and to what extent he was badmouthed. If it's as bad as he says, then yes that was uncalled for

[stavros]

I don't see any reason to doubt his story, and it's pointless to anyway. It might be total fiction, but within those parameters, he was right and they were wrong. We're just expressing opinions on a forum, which is the most moot thing to do anyway.

[SantalBlush]

>exit interviews aren't to express opinions or talk shit, it's a data source for HR

These are the same thing. You're trying to legitimize your opinion under the pretense of seeking raw, objective data, and characterizing OP's interview responses as something less than data, but it's not true.

[throw1230]

Well it's shit data and is not actionable

[nathanlied]

Why couldn't HR see this as just a data-point? Put things this way, if the "junior opinionated guy" is full of it, this kind of feedback won't emerge again, and you can discount it.

Or maybe you've got some other data-points indicating this guy is an issue? Say, his projects are consistently late, or there's issues developing new features, or his teams have a higher attrition rate, or, or, or.

This is why it's my opinion that these things should be as secret as possible so people can feel comfortable voicing their real opinions knowing it won't blow back on them, and the company can get real feedback that might prevent thornier issues from becoming terminal.

[kevin_thibedeau]

> it's a data source for HR to identify problems emerging as patterns

It's 100% CYA and nothing more. A performative act so the personnel department looks like it's serving the business and complying with labor laws.

[detaro]

So you are supposed to provide data sources about problems, but are not allowed to involve opinions in that? Can you give some examples of feedback that would fit that criteria?

[throw1230]

You can opinions if you can express them in a more neutral and actionable way.

- My boss doesn't like me and excludes me. vs - I think my boss has a few favorites who get all the cool projects. Despite me being the best person as I had the most experience with technology X, my performance in good standing, and having showed interest in the project, I didn't get assigned to that project.

[digisign]

It is after a number of people quit. Then there is good information on who the problem is.