[vikingcaffiene]

I'm not sure a lot people know that Albini ended up washing his hands of his work with Nirvana. After the recordings were wrapped and the mixes were done, Kurt was really unhappy with some of the sounds. If memory serves it was the vocals and the bass. They ended up doing some overdubs and sharpening things up in the low end in mastering. The very thing Albini specifically said he didn't want them to do. I personally think the results speak for themselves. In Utero is a FANTASTIC rock record. I can't help but wonder what the original would have sounded like though...

[daydream]

In addition to bootlegs of the rough mixes you can also check out the official 20th anniversary vinyl reissue, remixed by Albini from the original masters. https://www.nirvana.com/album/in-utero-2013-mix-2lp/

[bwoodward]

You can find his mixes on Nirvana's youtube channel --- Heart Shaped Box [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9pwGlgQz2E

[MrScruff]

Oh that's cool! I remember hearing about this mix at the time and wondering how it would sound. I much prefer it, way more in keeping with the indie 'live' vibe of the rest of the album and it feels darker/more menacing because of the greater contrast between the verses and chorus.

I actually always felt the original track stood out (in a bad way) on the album and it's interesting to hear how much of that was introduced by the remix.

The recording style Albini uses here was also in evidence with another classic rock album he references here, PJ Harvey's 'Rid of Me'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVeP-AHFk-s

Some people (eg. Elvis Costello) hate this 'naturalistic' style, but I think the overproduced style that dominates radio often strips tracks of their personality.

[pschuegr]

Got a source for that Elvis Costello opinion? I'd like to read more.

[MrScruff]

https://guitar.com/news/music-news/elvis-costello-steve-albi...

My take is that as a singer songwriter he can't stand the fact that Albini makes the drums and guitars as prominent as the vocals, and gives the vocals so much room ambience. I think it works fantastically on a rock album that's supposed to be dark and brooding anyway.

[jhap]

Can someone with more experience help me recognize the differences between this version and the released version? I'm having trouble hearing them.

[bwoodward]

You might like this video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6Gp8up3l8Y

[gregsadetsky]

Thank you so much for posting this

[hluska]

First off, that’s cool too!!

If you want to get into it, start by putting the released version on repeat and listen to it a few times in a row. To start, focus on Kurt Cobain’s voice, specifically where it ‘sits’ in the mix. Then, switch to Steve Albini’s version.

When I hear Steve Albini’s version, Kurt Cobain’s voice is less pronounced. What do you think??

If that helps, I can point out more differences. Or, maybe you can point out some you hear?

[parenthesis]

To me the differences matter much less than the fact that after about a minute and a half you've basically heard the whole song, and then I just get bored.

Which is funny, as there are many very repetitive tracks I like with long running times which never bore me. (Random example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXbdzLgwME0 .)

[mixedbit]

If you are using laptop speakers you may heave troubles hearing any difference, try headphones instead.

[agumonkey]

Impressive, it's a lot heavier and ~indie. Strange to revisit these times.

[bwoodward]

if you like a less polished sound, you should tuck into the Nirvana demos [1]. Back in the day it was really difficult to acquire these things (mainly trading or buying CDRs later on).

Nirvana is an excellent rabbit hole band, though. There are plenty of b-sides, bootlegs, demos, technically unreleased tracks, compilations, etc etc. They've released box sets that have pretty much everything besides the live bootlegs.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBcTBkNp94

[agumonkey]

I'm not sure I prefer Albini's mix, I'm still missing the released (commercial) mix. Somehow I find albini's version too toyed with (some instruments pops out at times). And the demo you linked is closer to the final version in that regard, sounds more like Nirvana to me. Thanks for the link, I had no idea these were online.

In a totally other genre, Michael Jackson Thriller vocal studo outtakes are breathtaking.

[eggsbenedict]

>Somehow I find albini's version too toyed with (some instruments pops out at times)

I'm a professional record producer and songwriter. Here are my thoughts:

Very likely it's the other way around. Albini is notoriously hard-headed about refusing to use compression on tracks and mixes. He's gone on record about how compressors ruin the tone, expressivity, and micro-dynamics of recorded sounds.

Regardless of whether you agree with that, and he does have a point, compression performs one job admirably: it prevents dynamic sounds from unexpectedly popping out of a determined dynamic range.

This is a disagreement lots of people have had with Albini's method, and he's also a little prickly about these things. He has an artistic vision of "properly" recording bands and mixing them in a way that doesn't adulterate or modify their live sound. In other words, he tries to get the final sound just through exacting microphone placement while recording, and applies the absolute minimum of post-processing.

However, the consensus in commercial record production at this point is that signal processing such as compression, distortion, and equalization, even in dramatic quantity, can create a more compelling audio result. Albini certainly views this as leading to a decline in fidelity (in the etymological sense of truth), and possibly as leading to a decline in artistic integrity (heavily debated).

A couple final ideas:

- In a recorded-music world, what constitutes an "authentic" or "true" sound?

- Should a studio operator (recording/mixing) aim to respect the real-world sound of the artist, or the intentions of the artist? How do you identify the intentions of an artist?

[ch4s3]

I can’t put my finger on it but that just sounds wrong to me.

[jdelman]

Kurt's vocals on the verses are panned left as if he's standing there. They're double-tracked on the album mix, which was a technique John Lennon used that Kurt admired. The reverb really sounds like a room. Guitars are definitely overdubbed on the final mix with the distortion cranked up, rather than sounding like one gentler guitar. I would say the bass seems not quiet but like it's "hiding" behind the guitars - it's not cutting through the mix the way it does on the album version. Seems to be a different guitar take for the solo - there's a pretty noticeable wah-wah effect on the guitar solo in Albini's mix.

Overall Albini's mix sounds much more live, which is exactly what he had in mind before he recorded with the band. The final mix is compressed, balanced, radio-friendly: it sounds more like it could fit on Nevermind than some of the other songs on In Utero.

[dylan604]

Other than Tool where Maynard removes himself from center of attention, I've never seen a live rock band where the singer was off to the left. Typically, lead guitarist on the left, singer in the middle, bass is on the right, and drummer in the middle back stage of the singer. If the idea was to make it as close to live as possible, why the decision to put Kurt over there?

[xanaxagoras]

I'm not sure about the decision to put Kurt over there but I assume it's no coincidence that Albini's own band Shellac (who are amazing) literally puts the drummer front and center: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i79f87C0M1c

[heavenlyblue]

Don’t singers sing through the microphone so their voice is coming from where the speakers are directed towards?

[boomboomsubban]

Cobain was both lead vocals and lead guitar.

[blenderdt]

I've seen a lot (Tool included).

Deerhoof for example has the drummer right front.

[ch4s3]

Left Kurt is the most noticeably odd thing with headphones, it just feels too much like he’s right off to my side. It’s just not the sound of the band in my head. The bass is noticeably different too, but doesn’t feel as wrong against my head cannon of their sound.

[pmarreck]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=headcanon

[ch4s3]

In my head Kurt has a sound and presence that doesn’t necessarily match the whole body of their work, but makes sense to me when I think about their songs.

[bwoodward]

Its tough to listen to a different mix when we've been enjoying the original for over 25 years. This video [1] compares them, but I'm with you with it sounding off. In Heart Shaped Box, the effect around 2m53s[2] is too jarring compared to the final mix we got.

I might be wrong, but I've always felt like Albini's aim to sound like you're in the room with the band, where the drums boom and the vocals are quieter.

[1] https://youtu.be/W6Gp8up3l8Y [2] https://youtu.be/F9pwGlgQz2E?t=173

[donw]

I think that stands out from his letter as well. Albini sounds really into the live experience of music, and wants to replicate that as faithfully as possible.

As a total aside: Albini's attitude and writing is a breath of fresh air in today's world polluted by corporate backstabbery and doublespeak. Albini is a professional. He says what he thinks, wants do his work and make his money, and doesn't try and lay claim to the entire future legacy of the band because he's good at slinging electrons around a board.

[sfteus]

Been a while since I've done anything related to audio engineering so my terminology might not be correct, but I've always heard this described as presence. Stems from old guitar amps that had presence knobs that would dump highs to ground to give a darker, slightly muffled sound.

Like you said, it's the difference between it sounding like you're in a small room with a band or in a large venue where some of the clarity is lost.

[keeglin]

I agree with this, but I like the Albini version. My first listen to this track (in a long time since hearing the other version) the vocal is centered with good imaging, and is much less boomy than the original CD version.

Very much like it's a person in a room, instead of processed.

It is far less "in your face", and arguably, teenagers then might not have thought it cool. Like a band from the 70's or 80's.

[ethbr0]

Will have to listen through good headphones tomorrow. My initial impression is also that I like Albini's version more, but I understand why the song became famous from the final mix.

Albini's does lack that separation that differentiated the remixed songs from contemporary and then recent punk and "always-on" grudge imho.

[acjohnson55]

I listened to Smells Like Teen Spirit at a listening station at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 20 years ago and the in-your-faceness blew me away. It was like hearing it for the first time again. I get why that record changed the game.

[raverbashing]

Interesting. There are definitely interesting aspects but the volume gating(?) on the start of the chorus are a No-no for me

It definitely feel more "indie" but not 100% in a good way for me.

[keeglin]

Thank you for this! That just brightened my evening. It's sounding _incredible_.

[StopTheWorld]

Pixies Nirvana

[strunz]

Not surprising considering Nevermind is one of the best sounding albums of all time. I personally give Butch Vig a large part of the. refit for getting the best out of the band and really making an incredible album. Hard to believe it's the same band as Bleach.

[Optimal_Persona]

As the mixer of "Nevermind", Andy Wallace deserves a lot of credit for the finished sound. Both Vig and the band weren't crazy about Vig's initial mixes. Between Nevermind and producing/engineering/mixing Jeff Buckley's "Grace", Andy Wallace did as much to define of '90s rock as anyone else, and has done phenomenal work before and since.

[wsc981]

Jeff Buckley’s Grace is an awesome album, much recommended if people haven’t heard it yet.

[Jgrubb]

I never pass up an opportunity to point out that his version of Hallelujah from that album is THE canonical version.

I'm sure it was covered by others before that, but his was the first version I ever heard and of the million versions I've heard since there's not a single one that comes anywhere close. And the way it and the next song go together are the definition of a centerpiece.

It's one of the great albums and I can't believe how much we lost because he decided to go swimming at night in a river. I also can't believe the same dude mixed Nevermind. Cheers.

[dylan604]

Butch Vig had such a large influence in my life as a teenager. For those that never paid attention to the liner notes/credits on their music, Butch was a producer on so so many bands.

[acjohnson55]

Plus, he's in Garbage, a great band in its own right, with an amazing sound. Vig defines the post-grunge sound that took over rock in the 90s: powerful choruses, vocals up front, tight production. Very different from the garage sound of proper grunge.

[ilamont]

I think Bleach was amazing. I remember exactly where I was when I heard it first, Newbury Comics in Harvard Square in 1989, and I had to ask the staff what was playing in the store PA because it was so visceral. What was the recording budget, $600 or something?

[prionassembly]

> of all time

This is a little extreme. "Teen spirit", "Come as you are", "Lithium" are great, but "On a plain" and other heavier numbers are jarringly plasticky.

[vlunkr]

He worked on the 2013 remaster. Doesn't really seem like he washed his hands of it.

[discordance]

Funny that... "I do not like remixing other engineer's recordings, and I do not like recording things for somebody else to remix. I have never been satisfied with either version of that methodology. Remixing is for talentless pussies who don't know how to tune a drum or point a microphone."

[boomboomsubban]

Wouldn't the remaster have been primarily his recordings?

[toyg]

Albini, like many greats of rock & roll, should always be taken with a massive grain of salt when he speaks. In the end they'll always go where the money is.

[copperx]

Not true. Also, he didn't remix anything. They just published his unreleased mixes.

[salmo]

They remixed the singles, really making them more “radio friendly”. Compressed, polished, and out of whack with the un-remixed “lesser” tracks.

The punk folks around Nirvana were surprised with how pliable they were with Geffen. Albini was pissed and wanted his name off of it.

He wasn’t easy to work with. Abrasive, rude, rigidly principled. He’s mellowed out with age, but really hasn’t touched much major label stuff since the 90s, if any.

If you listen to the original mixes on the reissue you hear how much more consistent it feels as an album. And I won’t lie. I have a bias. I love the quality of Albini’s work. Crisp and raw and uses the whole spectrum. And those drums…

Jesus Lizard, early Pixies, this album, PJ Harvey’s Rid of Me are more well known work he’s done that is great. Bush was awful. His band Shellac w/ the mentioned Bob Weston is f’n incredible.

These days, he works a super reasonable flat rate and will record anyone. Had friends who recorded at his Chicago studio. Brilliant guy.

[toyg]

> In Utero is a FANTASTIC rock record

Mh. As a teenager at the time, I always thought Nevermind was the real deal. Then the whole media phenomenon took over, so In Utero could have been shite and still sell bazillions - it was promoted massively. That's not to say it was shite, but IMHO it wasn't as perfect as Nevermind.

[lastdong]

I recommend Incesticide as one of the hidden raw gems. The whole Nirvana discography is strong (maybe the mellow MTV Unplugged hits a different tone).

[vba616]

>Kurt was really unhappy with some of the sounds

I think I read somewhere that P.J. Harvey wasn't happy with the way "Rid of Me" came out - but I thought it was incredible and nothing afterwards really compares.

[MrScruff]

Hmm, I've read the opposite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rid_of_Me#Recording

[moomin]

I think the confusion stems from the existence of “4-Track Demos”, but in practice Albini really liked the original demos and encouraged Harvey to turn them into an album.

My only real complaint about the production on “Rid of Me” is the obnoxious volume shifts on the title track and “Highway 61 Revisited” which seem to neither reflect what the live performances sounded like nor accommodate home listening.

[thom]

Oh man, I just find the title track absolutely thrilling, my whole body is tense building up to the chorus, partly because it's so extreme. And it doesn't seem unrepresentative of what she was _trying_ to achieve - I don't know many other performers who use breaths and whispers as artfully as she does. I think it's just hard to achieve such extremes as part of a wider live set.

[MrScruff]

Yeah, on stage you're fighting with adrenaline, shitty monitoring, screaming audiences and it's usually a pale imitation of what happens during jamming/rehearsing where you actually develop the songs.

[MrScruff]

I think that's subjective. It probably doesn't sound like a live performance would, but it does probably reflect fairly well what you'd hear if you were in the room with them rehearsing.

Listening to the album again now it's such a relief to hear a recording with such dynamic range, not the appallingly over-compressed loudness wars derived style we're subjected to now.

[moomin]

Oh, in general the production is fabulous, and you’re absolute right that over-compression has ruined more than decade’s worth of albums, but I’d rather listen to a random live cut of Rid of Me. Such a great song.

[vba616]

Yuri-G is perfect on 4-track demos, otherwise I like the Rid of Me versions.

I agree that the volume on Highway 61 Revisited is an imperfection, but it's still one of my favorite tracks. I have no reverence for Bob Dylan and no interest in listening to him sing his lyrics.

[moomin]

Ironically, the best lyrics in the song are the first verse.

[Exmoor]

There are Albini rough mixes out there. Not sure where to suggest looking for them (phone posting), but I no imagine they're not too hard to find.

[pipeline_peak]

You ask for Mr Slint to record your lp, you get a lo fi lp.

I know Kurt liked the Pixies, but after something as high end as Nevermind, who knows what he was looking for.

[rdiddly]

The irony of your calling him Mr. Slint is that the GOOD Slint album was done by someone else.

[jollybean]

I don't like In Untero compared to Nevermind, it feels a smidge too overproduced and less raw. I really wonder what it would have sounded like were it to have been the same producer.

[jghn]

Huh. It's funny as I always had the opposite thought. To me Nevermind sounds too polished and clean. When In Utero came out I remember being excited that it brought out a more raw sound that I felt they had lost. Different strokes and all that.