[lotsofpulp]

I am also a child of an immigrant family, but my prior probabilities put me on high alert around people who egregiously use the US flag (or flag of any nation at this point).

Maybe putting one on your house is OK, but the more fanatic you seem, the more on alert I am. Most normal people I meet just use it on 4th of July or something, but if you are draping yourself, your business, your car in it, then I assume you have a higher likelihood of being tribal for a tribe I am not part of.

And my experience is the people who fly the flag the most are the first to cheat on taxes and try to take advantage of others in society (especially not in their tribe), and then use that “patriotism” as a veil to hide behind.

Same thing with all the other signals Spivak mentioned.

[skeeter2020]

It's important we don't confuse Patriotism with Nationalism. The former is about the individual and generally positive & good; the latter is faceless and evil.

[cycomanic]

Seriously I don't see any difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism to me is mainly a veil to hide behind, so that one can argue that the kind of nationalism one self practices is not really nationalism.

An example is that many even quite left leaning people in the US (but also other countries) often start criticism of US politics with "I love my country, I believe it's the best country in the world..." how is that not nationalistic? You literally are saying you find all other countries inferior. Also what does it mean to love your country? It's completely abstract, do you love the people (I assume you certainly don't love every one), do you love the politics? What concrete thing do you love?

Maybe I'm colored by growing up in Germany during a time when (for very good reason) patriotism was frowned upon because we saw what it lead to. Maybe it's because I've lived in 4 countries now and I feel much more like a world citizen (even though I liked living in some countries more than others), but I find the concept of patriotism just doesn't lead to anything positive.

[Sohcahtoa82]

The way I see it, a Patriot loves their country and wants to see it become the best it can be. They recognize its flaws and want to improve it to make it the best country in the world to live in. They see people immigrating into their country as a compliment.

A Nationalist already thinks it's the best country in the world, and considers any criticism to be traitorous. They think being born there makes them superior to everyone else in the world, and doesn't want the country to be dirtied by immigrants.

[ben_w]

I certainly understand where you’re coming from and why.

However, for me there is an important difference: nationalism is always “I support my nation because it is mine” whereas patriotism (can be) “I like my nation because of stuff it is actually good at”.

There’s certainly an overlap, and not just because of cognitive biases, but the latter doesn’t need to denigrate other nations when saying ones’ own nation is good.

[whimsicalism]

I disagree.

If I said "I like Germany because it is comprised of the superior Germanic race" that would be nationalism, but under your definition it would be patriotism.

If you're saying that this is not within your definition, then I think your usage of "good" in your definition is question begging.

[ben_w]

I think I can see where you’re coming from with that criticism, but if I’m right then my error was an insufficient example.

I would count “I like Elbonia because we have the best mud farmers in the world” as patriotism. It may be untrue (which is a separate issue), and it may be chosen post-hoc as the only way to stand out (ditto), but it doesn’t imply other nations are no good at farming mud.

I would count your quoted example as nationalism for the same reason I would describe "I like men’s football because it is comprised of the superior male race" as sexism, while I would say that “I like men’s football more than women’s because I sexually fantasise about men and not women”, isn’t.

[silicon2401]

> Maybe I'm colored by growing up in Germany

You are absolutely colored by that. Germany has one of the worst identity complexes in the world because of nazis. It's understandable when the modern-day personification of evil came to power thanks to German nationalism, but it is definitely an outlier when it comes to national pride. In contrast, look at what non-western countries like India or Korea are like: unabashedly patriotic, which is great for them

[wbsss4412]

I don’t know where you’re getting your definitions from, but I don’t think they are widely agreed upon.