[unityByFreedom]

"Power corrupts" may explain the abusive nature of "tough love" programs, but it does not explain how the teen became troubled in the first place. Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.

[noduerme]

Most of the kids I knew who ended up in these programs were nowhere near as f*cked up as their parents - even before those parents handed their children to abusive thugs.

[unityByFreedom]

Right, so the question becomes, how do you break that cycle? These kids may grow up planning to be different from their parents. But when you become a parent, "muscle memory" can kick in. You end up parenting as yours did because that's what you know.

[noduerme]

This really is the question. Not to be crass but at least 3 of the kids I knew were grabbed at night and taken to these places broke the cycle by committing suicide. I was tempted to respond to the Englishman in this thread who posted a heartbreaking story by asking whether he/they thought this was still having ramifications forward in British society, but then I thought, well it's an extension of 400 years of beatings and rape in the British Navy so no shit it's still a cycle. A quick look at the Russian Army... or religious communities in West Texas...

Uh, how do you break the cycle. Maybe one out of ten people who are abused have the strength to see the viciousness of it and reclaim some part of themselves instead of repeating the abuse, and write about it for the NYT. The rest go to alcoholism, self-harm, anger, and repeating the same on their kids.

The only thing that's sort of worked to break these kinds of chains of abuse is when NGOs and governments go after them and expose the evil. That has had some effect on the Catholic Church, and a little effect on the worst excesses of the prison system in some states. The 20-30% of people in this country who were lucky enough not to suffer some sort of abuse [edit: Or who consider it wrong] are a minority, but thankfully in control of most of the media and civic institutions (for now: When they're not, it looks like Russia).

So I guess the best way to break this particular chain is at the weakest link, which is these kinds of "schools".

[Edit: Just re-reading your earlier response in another chain, I should clarify that I consider this type of discipline itself to be a form of abuse, often including sexual abuse. But in any case, breaking one chain or another is equally difficult when someone has been subjected to it and is now subjecting their children to it.]

[unityByFreedom]

> I consider this type of discipline itself to be a form of abuse

Absolutely. The "tough love" program made everything worse for OP, but the problem started earlier. Prior to being sent away, OP self-described as being misanthropic for years,

> The years leading up to my being taken and the eventual break out is now a blur of misanthropy.

If someone hates humanity for years, they deserve loving attention to help them see they are valued just as they are. In other words, Mr. Rogers was right, and we each need someone like that to believe in us.

[noduerme]

Definitely his report of his own behavior leading up to it is enough to make you wonder what you'd do if it were your child.

A lot of times when I'm out in the world and watch people acting out, or just behaving like they were raised in a barn, the coldest part of myself thinks their parents should have disciplined them. The warmest, fuzziest and most liberal part of myself thinks that their behavior is mostly due to abuse they suffered that was probably meant as discipline, which failed to impart its rationale and which their parents didn't know how to do any better since they were probably abused themselves, and their grandparents and so on.

So since you made me think about this, if the kids are fucked up little sociopaths already because of their families - which are incapable of valuing them and giving them that loving attention - short of taking them away from their families to some kind of utopia, what's the answer? We really can't effect a chain of kindness in those families just be being patient strangers. The only thing we might be able to do is sanction the parents and take away the institutions they rely on to perpetuate abuse. It's also possible we're just a few reasonably friendly people sitting on top of a volcano of hundreds of millions of psychotic assholes.

[unityByFreedom]

> what's the answer? We really can't effect a chain of kindness in those families just be being patient strangers.

IMO we could all benefit from taking a "positive discipline" [1] approach to relationships. And in those difficult families, hopefully outreach can connect them with a trained therapist who can both listen and appropriately guide. We're not all in a position to directly help, and it is largely up to the individual to make necessary changes for themselves. But we can each be a sort of light by which individuals might find their direction.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_discipline

[denton-scratch]

> 400 years of beatings and rape in the British Navy

Ah, yes: when someone mentioned British Naval traditions to Churchill, he replied "Rum, sodomy and the lash".

[wolverine876]

> Thoughtful parents and older siblings will not abuse their strength/wisdom against youth because they know they are raising a new generation that may one day make decisions for them.

I'm not sure what you mean? Plenty of parents and older siblings abuse their power, and plenty don't.

[unityByFreedom]

I wouldn't say you can "depend on" power corrupting parents. I'd say it's more the exception, and that parental behavior is better described by how they themselves were raised. By the time a misbehaving kid is in their teens, parents are grasping at straws trying to figure out what to do. They need training, not condemnation.

[wolverine876]

> I wouldn't say you can "depend on" power corrupting parents.

I see what you mean now. I did not mean to say that we could depend on power corrupting parents ... but now I wonder: how much does it, and to what degree do we normalize it and not see it?

> They need training, not condemnation.

Yes, they are humans too. It's true of most people doing bad things (if we define 'training' very broadly).