[narush]

Super cool. Martin Kleppmann, the lead author on this paper, is the author of Designing Data-Intensive Applications, which I haven't read but have heard pretty awesome things about.

What I have done: watched his other talks about CRDTs (conflict-free replicated data types). I'd recommend watching this video [1] for an overview of what CRDTs are, why he cares about them, and open problems (one of which he solves in this paper!).

A (potentially inaccurate) TLDR: local-first collaboration software presents is a compelling alternative to the current way collaboration is implemented in a client-server model. Specifically: if we build tooling that makes it easy to build collaborative experiences into your app without a server, then we'll potentially be able to achieve the goals of 'decentralization' (or, fuck the middleman or whatever you wanna call it) in some real sense. Note that I'm not talking about crypto coins here!

Very cool, very exciting!

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qytg0Ibet2E

[narush]

Ok, having read through the core of the algorithm, cool! Seems like the main key here is that move operations have timestamps associated with them, and this allows you to effectively linearize the operations (and ignore ones that result in invalid state).

The tradeoff: you need to store all the operations you've ever seen, as you need to be able to detect conflicts between old ones.

Question for the authors (if they are around): any ideas for how we might get to efficient pruning of old operations?

My first thought was that you could have some notion of epoch, and once you move beyond that epoch, you accept no new operations from it. But then you realize that this requires nodes to agree on moving between epochs, which seems like it might require some fancy consensus protocol / a known set of nodes / mad complexity.

I don't have any ideas. Do you all have some idea of how we might be able to prune this old log? Or even sketches of ideas?

[a7b3fa]

The authors actually do briefly mention this concern in the section titled 3.7 Algorithm extensions (under Log truncation):

> However, in practice it is easy to truncate the log, because apply_op only examines the log prefix of operations whose timestamp is greater than that of the operation being applied. Thus, once it is known that all future operations will have a timestamp greater than t, then operations with timestamp t or less can be discarded from the log.

The main issue seems to be that we need to know about all the replicas that we want to be able to synchronize with - but I guess there isn't really a way around this.

[narush]

I did miss this section in my skim, but it's also the first place I went as well. It doesn't seem like you could ever be sure that no old messages would be sent with an earlier timestamp if you don't know the set of nodes that are participating in the protocol.

Moreover, if you allow the set of nodes you do know to make operations maliciously (e.g. a single bad node enters the set and tries to cause conflicts), things get much more complicated, and I don't really think you can escape the impossibility results in relation to consensus protocols...

[martinkl]

Hi, one of the authors here. You're right that in order to ensure that you won't receive timestamps lower than some threshold, you need to know all the nodes in the system, and you need to hear from all of them (if even just one node is unreachable, that will be enough to hold up the process). That's quite a big assumption to make, but unfortunately there doesn't really seem to be a good way around it. Lots of CRDT algorithms have this problem of requiring causal stability for garbage collection.

Using a consensus protocol is possible, and would have the advantage that it only requires communication with a quorum (typically a majority of nodes), rather than all nodes. However, it has the downside that now a node cannot generate timestamps independently any more — generating a timestamp would then also require a round trip to a quorum, making the algorithm a lot more expensive.

[cdiamand]

Reading through the book right now. It's really illuminating. Highly recommend to anyone trying to plug any of the gaps in their knowledge of system design.

[sydthrowaway]

This book seems the bible of distributed systems, but I'm still looking for a MOOC that covers Distributed Systems.

[martinkl]

Not quite a MOOC, but if you like video, I published my lecture series here (same as what I teach to Cambridge undergraduates): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeKd45zvjcDFUEv_ohr_H...