[laurent92]

What tells you I wanted people to believe I were these things? I did guitar because it was nice to sing, and the idea of singing around a bonfire and maybe making people sing was just a good feeling. I sang the last song of a friend who died from cancer, and that was a song we had written together. He went for his last sleep on it, that’s the best departure I could imagine for him. Unfortunately, I plateaued at some level, like probably everyone does, so it became boring and annoying to not progress. It doesn’t mean I wasn’t guitar.

Anyway I don’t understand what women are looking for, that’s why I’m getting downvoted.

[moritonal]

I want to help, but you actually supported my point. You learnt guitar because you wanted the good feeling of people joining in you, which is the feeling of admiration.

You've supposedly been very successful and are caring of your friends, so I might be wrong of course. But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up. You should do things because they are your passion.

To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive? A stunning Pong score, a weirdly advance knowledge of B52 planes? A passion for fantasy books and their effect on the Mongolian peninsula?

[moritonal]

And I say all of this as someone who tried to learn guitar because I wanted to have that cool singing moment, but looking back I just wanted to be the center of attention. Which is very unattractive.

[laurent92]

> good feeling of people joining in you, which is the feeling of admiration.

Well, look around you, everyone gets their minute on stage, my schoolmates literally were into acting and showing off all the time. Even the thief of the band is with a cute girl now lol. But about ego-fuelled passions: the more everyone has a skill at making something beautiful, the more fun are your parties, because they all add up. So, it’s good to learn stuff, and I mostly want my participation trophy for bringing my share.

> You are supposedly caring of your friends

Yeah I was the one caring for the cancer friend while everyone had swimming pool. I was his worst political enemy when alive, he would have punched me if he had known my opinions, and here I was, his worst enemy, playing him his own song for his last breath, and none of his commie friends were here. Two days later his mother called me saying he never woke up. I was the last guy he saw, and not randomly, I was there every second day despite being 120km away. Me, the guy seen as selfish.

> But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up.

Can you technically describe it in a worse way? I think it’s a case of when a man isn’t successful, we blame him, and we depict him as the worst possible man, like expecting to “have pussy lined up like in the good ol’ times, cause you know, I’m all muscles and virility, big car with big sound, so women dishwasher blahblahblah.” I’m not this man. I’m just angry because I’m losing at life, and everyone caricatures me. I might just not be talented socially despite making all attempts respectfully (and making all attempts respectfully is what girls hate the most - even wifebeaters have a wife, I don’t) but it’s easier to imagine an incel chad, because the goal is to find a way to blame it on the guy.

> You should do things because they are your passion. To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive?

Yes, my work: I love building products and participating to the economic world, notably because it’s what I do best, but also because it makes everyone’s life better. Belonging to a charity is equally important. I also like windsurfing and guitar, but I’m average in both. But do realize that no woman is interested in a no-life worker with average level in two things, so yes, men have to adapt and do social stuff which puts them forward, preferably stuff that are halfway towards meeting women on a common ground. So according to your theory (for the return caricature, don’t take it literally), I should now be more seducing because I’m passionate in something. Actually, technically, you are saying not that I should be passionate, but I should be having a “stunning score” in that passion, so being excellent is required.

I think all of those are wrong leads. I think we as men should develop skills in many areas, guitar and windsurf included, and make a living and care for others around us, and girls should like us for who we are, and the fact that I’m not in, is both an unfortunate turn of events AND a very very very high hypocrisy of society about the incredible lack of consideration we give to men. And, perhaps, that society pushes so much into making diversity fashionable, that you really have to give “way more” of yourself as a white straight man, if you want a woman to accept you. And sorry, but I don’t want to be a slave to a woman, and I don’t want either to cheat her ego by flattering her with untrue stuff like so many are doing.

I’m crying because, writing this text, I notice I did so many things right, and I’m still losing at life and people still turn the blame back onto me. It’s an endless roundrobbin of blame, no-one will ever say “Ok guys, we did a mistake as a society, all wifebeaters have a wife, while regular workers get an annoying couple or no wife at all, while people who lie to women drown in pussy. That’s not good for anyone involved.”

[highviolet]

There's a lot wrong with society, and the expectations that are put on men which are ultimately damaging isn't talked about enough. Broadly, I think there's a sense that men must "earn" their worth through achievements, i.e. you are not born with inherent 'worth'. This belief is inculcated into us at a young age, explicitly or otherwise, and constantly re-affirmed by our media and culture as a whole.

There are two ironies to this. The first irony is that no matter what some people do, they will not reap the 'rewards' that was promised to them. This becomes obviously true when we remember that we don't live in a just world, at all, of which this fantasy of cosmic justice relies on. The second irony is that this fantasy of cosmic justice is inherently damaging and perpetuates injustice. We need to drop the idea that good things follow good people.

In your case, you're seeing it play out in the dating world, where issues of loneliness and the natural, human desire for intimacy are dismissed as being superficial complaints from basement-dwelling "incels". I am sorry that you experience this. Moreover, there appears to be no correlation between passions for a number of hobbies and lifestyles with what people are ultimately attracted to. Personally, I think we should drop the whole idea that there's a list of things men need to do before women can find them attractive. The same goes for women.

I don't know you personally, and I think these kind of issues hit at the most vulnerable parts of people so I don't want to sway you with any specific ideas of my own. So the only advice I can offer is cautionary: be wary of adopting only a masochistic epistemology. It is tempting to see the world through the lens of "I will never be attractive to women, no matter what I do" and finding every example of this to reinforce it. Everyone who has experienced the darker depths of the human soul knows that there is a pleasure in believing that whatever hurts is true. This leads to a vicious cycle of thoughts. This pessimism must be tempered by an optimistic epistemology. What that bountiful optimism looks like to you, I don't know, but from my experience, it is a missing 'second half' to the world that I had to consciously find which brought a healing and resiliency that deepened my relationship with myself as well as others. Best of luck.

[moritonal]

Your kindness to your friend was noble. I apologise for my frank diagnosis. Being talented as a cog of the economy is sadly very classically attractive, doubly so because you again do it because you wish to impact other people. I wish you the best.

[blindmute]

Women basically just want masculinity (often described as "confidence", but there's more involved) plus not being an asshole. Everything else is just gravy

[mbg721]

You figured out what women want?? Have fun with that.

[blindmute]

I have been having fun with it, very often