[thr0wawayf00]

> I think this is fun and clever, but I also prefer to maintain boring and simple code… I’m worried that hooks ramps up trivial complexity too much in exchange for often-unneeded power.

I've been in and out of the React world for the last 5 years, and this statement hit hard for me. Between the major shifts in best practices, the abstractions on top abstractions and constantly tripping up on the slight syntax differences between JSX and markup, so many commercial React apps I've worked on make me want to pull my hair out, and not just because of hooks.

In hindsight, the virtual DOM hype has not lived up to expectations, and I find newer frameworks like Svelte to be so much easier to work with. With the amount of React code running today, it's hard to see a future without it, but I'm so ready for it to be supplanted by something simpler.

[bpicolo]

I have to say, I've never felt this in the Vue ecosystem. It's relative simplicity in state management, and slower relative paradigm shifts have been pleasant. The 2->3 shift wasn't perfectly done (and it did split the state management stories), but overall I've felt like I "kept up" fairly easily, compared to React.

And that's while writing a lot more React than I did Vue.

[jitl]

There’s too much framework in Svelte for me; I don’t like feeling so estranged from “regular” code. I think SolidJS is more appealing - although it might be even more clever than React…

[thr0wawayf00]

To each their own, I guess.

I haven't built anything with SolidJS, but it's not my style based on the docs. It is interesting that you bemoan being so far from "regular" code in Svelte when it's basically a minimal superset of HTML, as opposed to Solid, which uses JSX (which feels very far from "regular code" to me). Also given the fact that Svelte is a compiler that emits vanilla JS, I have a lot of more control over performance, compile-time checks for things like a11y, unused deps, etc. I'd argue that svelte source code looks a whole lot more like it's output than SolidJS does, but that't just me.

It's easily the best overall front end developer experience I've seen, but I've only built smaller projects with it so far.

[danielvaughn]

Interesting - I began using Svelte after years of using React, and I found it to be far less framework-y. I feel much more connected to what's actually happening, but I also haven't built out a very complex application with it yet. Is it the weird $: reactive model that you don't like? That was the weirdest part for me, even if it's supposed to be "normal" javascript.

[com2kid]

Svelte feels very minimal to me. It is regular JS where I can say "shove the value of this variable onto the web page and rerender that component when the value changes" but saying all of that is just $:

[wly_cdgr]

All frameworks are good when they are new and different from the one you're using, and bad when you've worked with them for a few years

[djbusby]

I had bad feelings about React when I first saw it. Then I saw RiotJS and that just clicked for me. I like Svelte too - haven't put it in production tho