[syats]

Just be ethical about it.

If you are a tourist in the global south, and you negotiate down the price of some craft/souvenir/whatever you are buying on the side of the road, you will be able to buy an extra cup of coffee back home, but the person there might have to stand in the sun and away from their family for 4 more hours.

Don't let the well-being of others all in the hands of "the market".

[esperent]

If you're a tourist in many developing countries you're gonna get charged 200 - 500% of the price a local would pay anyway, so haggle away. Whatever you end up paying is almost certainly going to be way over the going rate, especially in a tourist area. If you're outside the tourist area then things might be different and people are more chill, likely to treat you as a customer instead of a mark. Also depends on the country of course. And should go without saying to treat the people you're haggling with with respect and kindness - if they don't reciprocate then bring your business elsewhere. Don't reward shitty behavior just because someone is poor.

Source: I've lived in a developing country for long enough to work out how much things actually cost.

[AdamJacobMuller]

Yeah but the thing is the money doesn't really matter to me.

I remember being at a stall (I think it was in Istanbul) and picking out these beautiful scarves for some people back home.

They probably were marked up 500% from the local price but they were still super cheap, like $5/each. When the guy gave me the final price I rounded up and gave him bills in the local currency (it was probably an extra dollar or two USD) but the guy was just super super happy.

The extra couple of bucks for me was meaningless, but, definitely improved his mood and hopefully improved his life.

Plus, now, each gift came with a story to tell.

On the other hand, I bought a rug while there and did not negotiate enough and when I got home my turkish colleagues laughed at me :(

[danamit]

Good, just be you.

Sadly I notice some haggling tourism, people are being misled by blog posts and vlogs that the culture there is to haggle and that the seller respect you more when you haggle. I find that to be totally unsettling.

I am a local in a developing country, with an upper middle class income, I do not haggle, I give extra tips, my friends from similar income level do so too, some do for things I do not tip for. If you are a tourist and wanna have a local authentic experience you probably should match the behavior of the people of that nation with same income level as you not of the vast majority that can happen to be poor.

Also I won't trust diaspora colleagues, just like how Italians will always insist that the pizza you've ate in Italy was not up to standard and not a real pizza just a round piece of bread with vegetables on top of it and the real pizza is on mr mario's pizzeria in the luigi street in Milan, all diaspora of the world do the same.

[diegoperini]

In places where tourism season only lasts for a few months, cost of living for the off-season is included in that 200-500% inflation.

[esperent]

Local people live in these places too and they stay there all year round. The woman selling crispy snacks to tourists at 500% markup will also sell them to locals for the normal price all year round, just as crispy snack sellers do in non tourist areas. It's different for the souvenir sellers of course.

This doesn't discount the real poverty that exists in many countries, and I'm not dismissing that. But if you're seeing poverty in a tourist area it probably means it's ten times worse in the places where tourists don't go and you're not going to solve that by stressing out over whether you should feel guilty for haggling or not. It's not your job to solve poverty in places you visit and feeling like you should is more a case of "Western guilt" than anything else.

You'll have a much more lasting impact, and gain much more, by seeking out human interactions that are not purely financial, sharing your culture and experiences with theirs, than you ever will by buying tourist crap in every place you go.

[Beltalowda]

Adding to that, the worst part is if you're living in a developing country and are paid just a local salary. You're still charged >300% because everyone assumes you're some rich western dude, but I certainly wasn't. It was a real drag.

[esperent]

The struggle is real. But something that made me feel a bit better was learning that my partner also gets overcharged even though she's local - but she comes from another region with a different accent. Not quite as badly overcharged as me, maybe she gets charged 200% while I get 300%, but still.

There's also a few street vendors who don't overcharge, they're lovely and I make sure to remember them and go back. Not something you can do as a tourist though.

[ivanche]

So the locals can’t work on something else in the off season?

[PedroBatista]

They “can”, but have you asked yourself why are they working shitty precarious jobs in the first place?

It’s not like their economies are that dynamic and have the liquidity to absorb most of them with decent stable jobs.

We like to forget but it only takes a year like 2008 to remind us.

[cassianoleal]

That is, unfortunately, correct in many instances. Jobs are not an infinite resource.

[bobthechef]

The dealer will not charge less than he can afford. He’s not being coerced into beggary. There is clearly a market. And tourists will still overpay as they always do.

It’s not the tourist’s job to worry about the knick knack dealer’s finances. That’s patronizing, presumptuous, and shows a lack of boundaries. Unless you’re dealing with a beggar where a transaction may be merely symbolic, I don’t even see a legitimate opportunity for charity here. Even then, you could still contribute to entrenching poverty by encouraging a tourist culture that inculcates dependence on charity. Authentic charity and generosity are governed by reason, not sentiment.

[yunohn]

I still disagree with excessive haggling in developing countries, as a tourist. Whatever you haggle, it’s never more than a few dollars - like GP said, worth nothing to you, but everything to them.

[hiptobecubic]

This doesn't change the original point whatsoever.

[janekm]

I can't help sharing one of my favourite haggling anecdotes here. I was in a jewellery market in Mexico City, waiting for a friend to return from the toilets, so I spent some time looking over the goods of a stall and looking at one silver bracelet. The stall keeper noticed and told me it was (not the actual prices) 500 pesos. I tell him I'm not really interested. He says 250, I tell him I'm still not interested. 150, still not interested. He says he needs to "check with his boss" and walks off around the corner (there may or may not have been a boss) and comes back with 100 pesos. At this point I figure, well it'll make a nice present for someone and accept...

I don't think he lost out as I legitimately had no interest in buying before he haggled himself down that low, but it was an interesting lesson in how far haggling can go in some circumstances...

[muzani]

This is what a haggling culture actually looks like. There's an assumption in this thread that in all "non-Western" cultures, haggling is the norm. But I think it's important for the seller to imply consent first.

[thebean11]

Haggling is the asking for consent part. Are you suggesting that "can I haggle with you?" is somehow more polite than "would you sell it for $x"?

I think it's honestly kind of infantilizing to assume someone who is selling goods for a living is going to be somehow tricked or manipulated into selling at a price they do not want to sell at.

[muzani]

It's not about manipulation, but manners. Where I live, you literally do ask, "Is this the final price?" Or a lengthier way might be, "This is a beautiful thing and I would love to have it! But alas, it is beyond my budget."

Most cultures are not as direct as American. In the US, it's a virtue to save time instead of dancing around the question. But in some cultures, dancing around the question is a mark of respect. You first acknowledge that the seller has been generous and then ask them for further generosity.

[thebean11]

And in some cultures, "would you do it for $x?" is totally normal and expected, including the US in some contexts (like Craigslist or a used car lot).

[pc86]

For the seller to imply consent? There's another article on here about "No" being a complete sentence. The seller is not forced to haggle at all, they just have to repeat the same price.

[sumtechguy]

If you want to re-experience this goto the mall and find one of those kiosks where they sell weird junk. If they are sort of aggressive and coming at you chances are they will play the haggle game. If it is some bored kid on their cell, probably not. When I was younger I would goto garage sales and haggle with people. It was semi fun and a interesting learning experience. It was my first hands on experience with a core CS concept of divide and conquer. I would offer half and we would bisect into the middle to find the real price we wanted.

Also the sales technique that seller used on you is called anchoring. The fun ones are the ones who disappear again and come out with a 'damaged' one that they can not sell but will cut you a deal on. That is usually the next step on that train of bargaining that seller was using.

Most things are not really worth haggling over. Big ticket items, sometimes yeah. Small things not as much. Also know where you are. Some places you are expected to do it. Others it is the sticker on the shelf move along...

[Cthulhu_]

I'm convinced that these are the kind of profit margins on products in "the west" as well, but without the haggling.

[chris_overseas]

I guess you're referring to items like these? https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/apple-mac-pr...

[account42]

"Financing Available" for a set of wheels, incredible.

[warrenm]

Why not? Yokohama does it :P

[technothrasher]

I tried the "just pay the price they're asking for their bobble, it's inconsequential to me anyway" at a little market in Botswana. It caused a big fight with a few vendors because they were sure the one I randomly chose had some scheme going to get me to just give them money since I didn't haggle. After that disaster, it became clear that most of those tourist markets expect you to haggle.

[rubyfan]

I had the same experience in a European country. I was visiting family and they intervened on my behalf luckily.

[dotancohen]

Romania? If not I'd love to know where.

[bogdanu]

As a romanian this makes me curious why you thought is Romania, haha.

[dotancohen]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Romanians have a very strong haggling tradition. I've personally only been two weeks in Romania, but even in other European countries the Romanian vendors would recognize my wife as Romanian and begin haggling with her in Romanian.

[bogdanu]

I guess older people do that in farmers market or when trying to sell used stuff - some real estate can be negociated too, but usually the seller mentions it in the ad. Other than that, it's kinda weird to negociate stuff in stores or for services, at least for me, a 30yo male.

[rubyfan]

Spain actually

[dotancohen]

Spain was my third-place guess, just behind Italy. ))

[bin_bash]

What an odd example, those cultures people expect haggling and they will dramatically increase the starting price if you're a Westerner. You could be asked to pay 10x what they'd be willing to sell it for. You absolutely should haggle if for no other reason than to experience their culture a bit deeper.

It's far from being rude or inconsiderate—especially not "unethical".

[yosamino]

> they will dramatically increase the starting price if you're a Westerner.

The point is that due to the large different in wealth, the increase is "dramatic" for them, but probably neglible for you.

Why not make someone's life a tiny bit better by not pressuring some some small time vendor in a country with less than a third of the GDP per capita than yours into giving up their share of the wealth that tourism is supposed to bring. Otherwise: what is the point of tourism for a host country?

Imagine making 80k/year, paying $100/night for the hotel you are now stepping out of and then haggling with someone who maybe makes 10k/year over the price of a $30 hat that you would pay $59.99 for if you were to buy it in the US and that takes $5 to produce.

I personally don't just find it rude, I find it entitled.

Negotiating prices within "those cultures" make sense when the playing field is somewhat level. Don't exoticize and take advantage of it.

> You absolutely should haggle if for no other reason than to experience their culture a bit deeper.

That is just offensive. Go to a nice restaurant, enjoy their food, see a museum, enjoy the sights. Haggling is not at the core of anyone's culture.

Imagine a Thai person going to Olive Garden for the immersively american experience of tipping their waiters - and even that makes the tinies bit of sense, because at least in that transaction money flows in the right direction.

[mekoka]

Right, so paying 15$ for a coconut at the beach of some tropical country, while you're literally surrounded by them, because that's what you're used to pay in Manhattan. I don't know if you realize how patronizing you come off as. Why buy the thing at all? Why not just give them your money? I'm serious. It's equally offensive to locals to see foreigners inflating prices for no other reasons than they can. Paying as close to the local price you can manage is part of the experience of respectfully visiting another culture. Try not to export your pricing habits and consumerism. Entire neighborhoods have become unaffordable to locals due to this mentality. If you want to help, find creative ways to spend the money. Plenty of local communities and villages would welcome your gifts. No need to disguise them behind a transaction.

[pc86]

Your last line betrays your entire point, that for some reason money flowing one direction is "right" and it flowing less (but still flowing) is wrong.

Perhaps just worry about how you spend your money and stop projecting morality onto other people whose circumstances and needs you know nothing about.

[yosamino]

> whose circumstances and needs you know nothing about.

I think the circumstances "tourist haggling with vendor" and needs "tourist wants to experice other culture" where very well established. Whether or not I know anything about this, is an assumption that you are making without knowing anything about me.

Of course how and why and where money is spent is stock-full of morality and ethics. That's not an idea that I privately came up with myself.

[bin_bash]

I always make a large donation to a credible non-profit or two after visiting a third-world country that pales in comparison to the amount I would've paid to street vendors ripping me off.

That puts my money to far better use.

BTW my wife is from a very poor country and she would laugh at anyones face for paying full price to a vendor. It doesn't make you "ethical" it makes you stupid in her mind.

[oblio]

> BTW my wife is from a very poor country and she would laugh at anyones face for paying full price to a vendor. It doesn't make you "ethical" it makes you stupid in her mind.

I was thinking along the same lines a while ago. Then I realized something, please pass this along if you want:

No, they're not stupid. They just have money and they don't care that much. You're poor (or were and that memory lingers) and stressed out and they just want to relax.

By and large rich people are as smart as poor people and are on average better educated. If they're doing something "dumb" constantly, you don't understand their world, especially this Iron Triangle of Activities:

Time - Stress - Money

any activity is somehow paid. With either your time or your stress or your money.

Poor people pay with time or stress, smart rich people convert those frequently into money.

[throw384732]

I have friends from "poor" countries and they see paying full price like paying 20% on tips.

For some it's acceptable, and for others it's not.

[oblio]

If they're still poor, sure.

If they now make a decent developed country salary, haggling in a poor country over 0.0001% of your monthly salary is probably not an efficient use of their time, but old (irrational now) habits die hard.

[kerberos84]

Adjusting prices according to local purchasing power is a reality in the business. Amazon prime, Netflix, iCloud are the first ones coming in to my mind. Why wouldn't poor street seller take advantage of it?

[refurb]

Disagree. Just negotiate.

As a foreigner you're going to pay a premium anyways no matter how hard you negotiate.

If you don't negotiate, that just becomes the "price you can get from foreigners", so the starting point gets jacked up. Soon enough it becomes the place tourists avoid.

[antattack]

If you pay too much you spoil it for everyone. Vendadores don't work for themselves so no matter how much money you give them - they have to stand in the sun.

[ge96]

Aren't they marked up if they know you're a foreigner.

[mintone]

I used to have this mindset... but then I realised that even if they charge e.g. $25 to a local and $50 to me, I'm not personally worse off.

There is little benefit to me in bargaining my way down to $25 - yeah they might think they've conned me, but (as long as it's not factory made junk) I'm happy to pay $50 for something that I like, even if I could negotiate it down to $25. The $25 saved simply doesn't mean that much to me in the grand scheme of things, but most likely does to them.

[emerged]

If you don’t negotiate when negotiating is the norm, seems like you might find yourself surrounded by venders pretty quickly

[jamjamjamjamjam]

I have to buy many online goods in USD with my devalued currency. Isn’t that the same?

[7steps2much]

Not really. With these souvenir shops etc they have a baseline price X for locals and then a price Y for tourists where the price Y is deliberately higher.

In the case of online goods they have a price X in USD because that is the currency the seller has / uses. They sell it to everyone at that price, they don't upcharge people who have to convert currencies.

Now, it is very well possible that those people will have to pay quite a lot for it, but that's because they buy from a seller based in a region that's financially better off and as such has higher prices in general, not because the seller tries to get as much as possible out of them.

[pc86]

They sell it to USD to everyone, but price discrimination is real and people absolutely pay widely different amounts for the same physical (and digital) products online all the time. Purchaser's country can definitely be taken into account.

[hogrider]

Living off turists is the most negative value thibg you can do. They spun a bracelet in 5 minutes and want a weeks wages for it. It's always a scam and you should never support it, food and lodging is enough spending as it is.

[giantg2]

Some cultures expect you to haggle and to not would be an insult.

[kingofpandora]

An oft-repeated aphorism by travelling westerners so they can justify negotiating over $1, but I have yet to actually come across someone who would be genuinely offended by not haggling.

[giantg2]

It's not all cultures, only some. Others in this thread have given first hand accounts of how not haggling has caused trouble.

[kingofpandora]

Someone said that not haggling caused the neighbouring vendors to be upset (presumably jealous at not hitting the jackpot).

Can you point me to the cultures where not haggling caused offense?

[bobthechef]

There is some confusion here. There is no moral obligation of the sort that you are claiming .

Speak to a tour guide in these countries and he will tell you that many tourists from western countries that don’t have a culture of bargaining vastly overpay for many things that are marked up precisely because the locals know tourists don’t know any better. Even if they did, they would still make a profit.

People in the “global south” aren’t stupid. They are much better at playing the bargaining game than westerners. You are no match for their hustling. They will tell you when they cannot go any lower and will not sell for less than that amount. Even that amount is bound to make them a nice profit. It’s not like you’re fleecing them or coercing them into loss. They will not sell below what they can afford. Why would they?

If you want to be generous, be generous, but even generosity can be misguided and foolish, even condescending in its presuppositions (westerners often have patronizing views of the “third world”). Charity has its place. (Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.) Ethically speaking, justice does not bind us to refrain from bargaining because there is nothing unjust about it.

[dotancohen]

  > Look at the effects of mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti for example of misplaced charity.

What are the problems with mitumba in Africa or free rice in Haiti? I'm not American so maybe these are cultural references that I'm not familiar with.

[jtc331]

I’m not familiar with the details of these specific examples, but I imagine it’s parallel to the problems created by Toms giving away shoes in Africa that they’ve shipped in. They actually do a lot of harm because they’ve displaced local economy —- from shoe makers to the sources of material for the shoes etc. In an effort to be charitable they’ve actually destroyed livelihoods and taken food off of people’s tables. If they really wanted to do charitable good they could employ the shoe makers and use local raw materials for those shoes.