[mardifoufs]

If Americans were singled out by the entire world, forbidden from traveling and targeted by even the software the install it would have just led to much much more patriotism and unity. There is no better way to unite a divided group than to target it as a single entity. Makes it a lot easier to set aside your differences and a lot harder to dissent within your group. That's what happened after 9/11, no one paused to think what actions lead to that event or the geopolitical context. It just united every American overnight.

In a way that already has happened in Russia. The sanctions did not lead to less (or more) support for the war. The initial sanctions were justified as they targeted the russian state, but the knee jerk reaction of also imposing sanctions that explicitly were aimed at the population lead to nothing but resentment against the west.

Whether you are on the morally right side or not, it does not matter in that context; you cant really debate your way into convincing someone that you are doing something for his own good when you are doing everything you can to also make him suffer

If the intention is just to hurt them for the war, then sure that will work as intended... but I think it's dishonest to pretend we are doing it for anything more "noble" than that

[scotty79]

Ok. So we should hug and support Russia in those difficult times and it will inevitably result in lowering Russian patriotism and becomming more westernized? Because we were trying to do for the last 3 decades and nothing like that happened. Russians are very patriotic and strongly support their government when it confronts the western world by bombing civilians.

If nothing works I prefer to apply punishment in hopes that smart Russians emigrate and Russia will crumble. And yes, punishment should affect more civilised and smarter Russians too to either motivate them to clean up their country or leave it.

[mardifoufs]

No, not at all. My only argument is that we can't pretend it's all just for their own good because it will make them finally see the light and get rid of their government. That's just not true, it won't happen and I think it's just something people say to themselves because they aren't comfortable with the reality that they are pushing for an entire civilian population to suffer.

It's war, so again no moral judgment on that, but sugar-coating it is even worse than admitting the truth.

A bit off topic but if you think the west was supporting and hugging russia or ukraine in the 1990s and 2000s, you might need to revisit how we got here.

[scotty79]

It's for their own good because result of that is them getting out of dictatorship rather sooner than later. And it's a greater good than enjoying conveniences of life while living in a dictatorship.

[mardifoufs]

Why would that result in changes in their political system? And sorry but your last sentence is clearly coming from a very... western perspective. It's only true until it's you actually face hardship. I'm sure for most people security is more important than ideology or freedom; even in the west we saw in the past 2 years that a huge chunk of the population was willing to trade pretty much any right or freedom in exchange for safety.

There's just no need to pretend it's for their own good when it's trivially easy to prove that sanctions rarely lead to the end of a dictatorship. Just look at Cuba,Iran,NK or even venezuala.

[scotty79]

I'm from Poland. I stood in the breadlines for hours as a kid. I remember rationing basic foodstufs like sugar, sweets, meat, flour, eggs.

And trust me, democaracy that we got out of discontent stemming from economic devastation is worth every hardship we endured.