[LargoLasskhyfv]

Nopetynope. I don't remember where exactly anymore because I rarely buy beer, but I think it was Lidl where I returned some Tsingtao bottles and heard the machine crushing them, thinking WTF?!

Edit: I know this isn't true for every glass bottle, but it happens. There are one way glass bottles in .de

Which you still have to return, to get the 8 or 15 cents(don't know exactly) back if you care.

[9dev]

Yeah, there are some intricacies as I said, didn't want to turn this into a long-form essay (because that's what you need to describe anything formalised in Germany). Lidl doesn't participate in the bottle sharing initiative as far as I know for example; differently-shaped, one-way bottles are definitely a thing; and sometimes, there are deposit machines that for some reason don't accept a local brewery, although they should.

But all in all, this system definitely ensures at least a big part of German bottles are actually reused multiple times.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

K, but what I really meant to say was rather why do the bottle return thing at all, if you could have a few standard bottles which last decades, and fill them at the store, supermarket, etc. from kegs, canisters, and return only those, instead of single bottles?

Edit: where the kegs/canisters take the part of standardized liquid containers, as it is common in gastronomy already?

Just need to have a machine which can do the refills from store to longlife bottle quickly and clean at the store.

Editedit: Trying a braindump, from my impressions over the past decades, even long before "Grüner Punkt" and other return systems, just regarding bottles.

In larger supermarkets, and stores specializing in selling bottled stuff, there are always large areas for the returns, inside and outside. All for gathering and storing that stuff, to send it back to whereever and whenever. Sometimes with larger forklifts, stacking pallets/boxes 3 storeys high. (about 9 to 12 pallets, or boxes)

This is the cult of the bottle! Make work!

[vestrigi]

So you mean local bottling at each store with standard bottles? I like the idea, but the challenges are quite tough. - No branding/consumer information possible on the bottle - carbonized beverages can‘t just be poured in free air like juice or milk, a large facility is needed - beverage stores would have to pump dozens of different beverages through one machine, that would always mix a little bit of the last filling - that facility must follow strict hygiene requirements which makes it expensive

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Let's ignore the machines for a while(waves hands...). I think that is possible. Think of the the ones giving all sorts of coffee in a cup, but also soups, like in some companies canteens.

I've thought about the carbonizing thing. Let's say there are glass cylinders of common sizes and proportions, made out of light, and nearly indestructible laboratory glassware. Everybody has a few of them, like knife, fork and spoon, kitchenware, and so on. Why not have the cylinder open on the top, with a screw thread?

Several sorts of caps precisely fitting onto that thread, sealed when latched on? Then there could be a module like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codd-neck_bottle for anything sparkling as the 'cap' being screwed and latched onto that cylinder. As one of many options. Think bottle lego! :-)

As for the branding, consumer information? Some sort of e-paper, or some RFID with a little bit of storage would surely do? (Also modular, so you can either change it, without throwing away the base bottle in case of defect, or vice versa. Because shit always happens)

Edit: Thinking further about it, It vaguely seems this could also be applied to most stuff which ships in tin cans. Like soups, Ravioli, and so on.

Editedit: Regarding the large facility...These already exist for baking pre-baked stuff, so you have the illusion of freshness.

It could also save a massive amount of store space because there could be one area with all sorts of filling stations, with the canisters plugged in behind the scenes. Instead of having rows of rows of stacked bottles or tin cans which need to be restocked continuosly.

Regarding deliveries, could be similar. All the "ghost kitchens' having such systems, filling those common containers with their common caps, from a common pool.

The small modular bottles for consumers just shuttling back and forth locally/regionally in that pool, while the larger ones only making it back and forth between delivery hubs and producers. No matter if Supermarket or delivery from some 'ghost kitchen'.

Phew! I'll leave it at that :-)

Editeditedit: Err, nope! Can't stop! Cold Plasma like in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonthermal_plasma for disinfection! (Maybe)

[vestrigi]

You’re right about the bakeries, if they were willing to do that they might as well start out with a filling machine, doesn’t have to cover all products at once :)

Actually I’ve seen this at one or two upscale supermarkets. They had a larger filling station for cereal, candy and other dry goods but it wasn’t the supermarket itself that sold those. Similar to an in-store “Unverpackt-Laden” (no packaging store).

In my opinion it would be more realistic to start out with dry goods to save emissions. The German bottling system is not so bad to begin with and could be improved later.