[pabs3]

Where is this muddying happening? The only place I've noticed it is on HN, where others always correct the poster by pointing at the Open Source Definition.

Maybe it is time to ditch both "open source" and "free software" and go with something that has a clear meaning that isn't possible to muddy, like "libre software", prefixed with "always" for copyleft licenses and "currently" for permissive ones.

[Nadya]

Those who sit on the Open Source side of things constantly muddy the waters and claim they are one in the same. Those who sit on the Free Software side of things are adamant that they are related but different.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....

The important bit is here:

> “Free” and “open” are rivals for mindshare. Free software and open source are different ideas but, in most people's way of looking at software, they compete for the same conceptual slot. When people become habituated to saying and thinking “open source,” that is an obstacle to their grasping the free software movement's philosophy and thinking about it.

[pabs3]

I meant to ask who is muddying the waters by claiming that "open source" == "source available" rather than the Open Source Definition published by OSI?

[Nadya]

Ask anyone who is not already heavily involved in open source software development. They can still be technical users - hell they can even still be programmers - just not already entrenched ones. You're going to have to correct them and go "No I mean this" in the same way that the Free Software movement has to correct people with "Free as in freedom, not as in beer."

See the "Common Misunderstandings of “Free Software” and “Open Source”" section of the article I previously provided. This is a known issue by both OSI and FSF.

[cxr]

You're bordering on tautology.

> Ask anyone who is not already heavily involved in open source software development [what "open source" means]

Where's the shock? Asking anyone about something that they're uninformed about and expecting an informed response is silly.

[Nadya]

Does similar confusion exist when asking people what the Childhood Cancer Data Initiative or Sustainable Energy Initiatives are about? Do you think there is a similar level of misperception among laypersons about the meaning of those initiatives? The common misperception regarding "Free Software" is that people think it means "gratis" rather than "libre". The common misperception with "Open Source" is that people think it means "source-code publicly available". But if the argument about common misperceptions being muddied water is not entirely convincing for you we can take another look at how the terms are defined.

The Free Software Foundation disagrees that "Open Source" and "Free Software" are the same thing. The discussion about whether they are the same thing should end there if we are to accept that the authority defining "Open Source" are correct in their definition of "Open Source". The same credence should be given to the authority defining "Free Software" providing the correct definition of "Free Software". If we are to accept both of these definitions as given by the authorities defining the terms - then they are necessarily different because the authority defining one of the terms says so despite any attempts of another authority who did not define the term at claiming otherwise.

In other words: X defines X and says X = X and X != Y. Y defines Y and says Y = Y and Y = X. Since X defines X and Y does not define X we must accept that X != Y per X's definition of X despite Y's attempt at redefining X such that Y = X.

It's uncharitable to point to OSI's definition of "Open Source" and OSI's claims that they are one and the same while completely ignoring FSF's definition of "Free Software" and FSF's claims that they are different.

[pabs3]

> Does similar confusion exist when asking people what the Childhood Cancer Data Initiative or Sustainable Energy Initiatives are about?

No idea about cancer, but even just on HN there is confusion about which meaning of "sustainable" is being used and what environmental and other impacts each energy technology embodies.

[cxr]

> Does similar confusion exist when asking people what the Childhood Cancer Data Initiative or Sustainable Energy Initiatives are about? Do you think there is a similar level of misperception among laypersons about the meaning of those initiatives?

I think most lay persons, upon being informed of the existence of a "Sustainable Energy Initiative", would readily admit when pressed to a lack of sufficient familiarity with the subject that would allow them to answer with confidence about what does or does not meet the standards of being deemed "sustainable energy". Likewise with anything involving "cancer"—most people cannot define it.

But this is beside the point, because we're not talking about the work activity of the OSI. We're taking about the definition of "open source". This is not the first instance of your moving the goalposts in this discussion.

> The common misperception regarding "Free Software" is that people think it means "gratis" rather than "libre". The common misperception with "Open Source" is that people think it means "source-code publicly available".

Right. The key thing being that those are misperceptions.

Misperceptions about the distinction between "cancer" versus "viral infection" versus "bacterial infection" would not lead us to say that because the public does not have a good understanding then the definition of "cancer" changes to something that it isn't.

> if the argument about common misperceptions being muddied water is not entirely convincing

That's not what's at issue.

> The Free Software Foundation disagrees that "Open Source" and "Free Software" are the same thing.

The FSF agrees that the definition of "open source" is the one that was formulated at the end of the last millennium; the FSF doesn't disagree with the OSI about the definition of "open source".

We started with your claim from the ahistorical definition of "open source" that a given project may not actually permit people to make their fork available to others. Any argument you make here needs to support that.

So far, you're making a lot of facile "water _is_ wet*"-style observations and, I dunno, hoping that no one will notice that that was never the point of contention.

* Try substituting "FSF was founded in 1985" (or any other factual statement) here that while true nonetheless has no bearing on the actual substance of the current dispute, despite whatever surface-level relevance it may appear to have to someone who is only halfway paying attention.