[kube-system]

The largest part of the pay gap is not negotiation, it's occupational segregation. And for the most part, sharing salaries publicly won't fix this at all. It's too late by the time everyone has chosen a career. To fix this gap, we really need to change how we all think about gender roles from birth.

[gotoeleven]

Whats to fix? The evidence shows that women and men choose different things. There is less STEM participation by women in countries that are more gender-egalitarian.

Smart women who are capable of STEM careers largely choose different careers, if they can. Whats wrong with that? Doesn't assuming that there is something to "fix" here imply that women are broken? It's already clear that removing the barriers to enter these fields doesn't make them substantially more attractive to women, so whats left to "fix"?

[kube-system]

There is more to the equation than STEM vs non-STEM jobs.

> removing the barriers to enter these fields doesn't make them substantially more attractive to women

Any why is that the case? There are a lot of assumptions about the types of jobs that men/women should be doing, and there are also a lot of cultural assumptions about those job positions themselves and what they expect of their workers. There are also still many jobs which are not receptive to one gender or the other, either by their cultures or the cultures of their customers. This is something that should be fixed, even if it doesn't impact the choices that people make, although we do know that cultural expectations have a huge impact on choice.

We also don't only have cultural expectations about jobs women should have. We also have expectations about jobs men have. For example, many cultures expect men to make personal sacrifices in order to earn more money. Gender expectations usually affect both genders at the same time, rarely one in isolation.

[ryan93]

Ill believe it when there is a massive push for women to go into dangerous jobs.

[kube-system]

Shouldn't we be equally concerned about men or women being hurt at work? The fact that most places, culturally, are not, is exactly the kind of stuff I'm referring to.

[e4e78a06]

The US and Europe have great safety regulations for workers. It turns out given the choice women would rather not live in the middle of nowhere in -40C weather getting soaked by crude oil and mud every day, even if it pays six figures. Why do men do it? Because there's a societal expectation that they provide for the family as a breadwinner.

[kube-system]

Exactly. Just because we have made great progress with blatant sexism over the past 50 years doesn’t mean that we’re treating sexes equally. This is one of the reasons why a wage gap due to “choice” isn’t as much of a “choice” as many write it off as.

We raise children with an expectation that women need to be “protected” from certain jobs (and other expectations), then after two decades of that conditioning, we ask them to make a “choice”. Of course those “choices” end up being biased. But they didn’t fully choose, they were raised to believe certain things about themselves and their surroundings.

[ryan93]

How are peoples choices ever gonna be unbiased? Beyond absurd to claim choices are only unbiased if men and women choose careers in equal proportion.

[kube-system]

I did not claim that men and women have to choose careers in equal proportions. They might, or they might not.

But we do have plenty of examples where the expectations of society have influenced their choices in a way that conflicts with the free will of men and women.

I am sure we can both come up with many examples of things that society expects men to do, and things that society expects women to do. And, examples of scenarios where people would be treated very differently if they were a man or a woman. Obviously, these are a factor in people's life experiences, and therefore a factor in the way people make decisions. We may not expect them to choose differently given their own free will, but we also know that they are not making these decisions due to free will alone.

[jimbob45]

So instead of pushing girls and boys to choose jobs based on their gender we should...push girls and boys to choose different jobs based on their gender? It seems like you're fighting fire with fire here.

[kube-system]

> push girls and boys to choose different jobs based on their gender?

Nowhere did I suggest as much. I am simply suggesting that the gender roles we ascribe to children early on leave permanent impressions upon what they choose, and maybe more importantly, what others expect of them.

[smegsicle]

by insisting on that suggestion, you are implying that this is harmful, that women choose incorrectly, and that it be corrected

[kube-system]

No, women (and men) are not “incorrect” for having been misguided by their upbringing. Children aren’t to blame for the way they were raised, they have no choice in the matter. Those who influenced them in that way are the ones who are incorrect.

[smegsicle]

by what evidence or intuition are you inferring misguidance?

[kube-system]

We have plenty of relevant examples of scenarios where, given the exact same set of circumstances, men and women would be treated differently for exercising free will in defiance of gender norms. There are still jobs, even in the most progressive parts of the world, where people are given different levels of respect just because of their gender.

[newsclues]

How does that work?

[kube-system]

I'm not sure what part of my comment you're referring to.

[newsclues]

“To fix this gap, we really need to change how we all think about gender roles from birth.“

How are you going to correct humanities concepts of gender that have existed for a long time?

[kube-system]

The same way we've made any other social progress. By discussing it.

[newsclues]

Problem solving requires more than discussion.

[kube-system]

Sometimes. But if it does, it starts there.