[hutzlibu]

"Not sanctioning them because "oh there's a chance maybe one of them actually doesn't like the guy" is an idiotic move. "

Given recent russian history of fights between Putin and various oligarchs - I rather think it would be a idiotic move to target them all without due process - because the chances are actually quite high, that many of them oppose Putin.

[scrollaway]

We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches. This gets more of them to oppose Putin. And several are now having to come out publicly speaking against him.

This is how we're helping a coup d'état happen. It's a good and solid strategy. A lot is riding on this.

[hutzlibu]

"We're not imprisoning them, we're freezing their riches"

Ok, I would be somewhat fine with it, if it is only "freezing". But still not without some form of process, that shows links of them to the government, or support/benefit of the war. Because otherwise this sets a (further) dangerous precedent. There was something called, "rule of the law".

[scrollaway]

Pray tell, where is the rule of the law not being respected? Call out specific examples if this is where your problem with this lies.

But need I remind you, we are at war, with an enemy committing war crimes every day and absolutely not respecting any "rule of the law". When you're up against fair adversaries, it's right to call for a fair fight. When you're up against somebody who's getting dangerously close to getting us into a nuclear war, it's ok to take some damn shortcuts.

Fat good the "long term consequences" of not having followed proper procedures will do us if half of Europe is irradiated. As we say in France, "there are largers cats to whip". I don't care, I live in Brussels, well within the blast zone.

[hutzlibu]

"we are at war"

Erm, no we are not. Russia is at war with the ukraine, but not with the EU, nor the USA. So maybe do not escalate?

"where is the rule of the law not being respected"

Where is it? It is not the case btw. that there is a title called "oligarchs". What all of this means in its current shape, is targeting simply rich russian people. Now sure, chances are quite high, that they got to their wealth through crime, but law does not usually operate on cliches.

"with an enemy committing war crimes every day"

And as far as I can tell, way more horrible are being done in Yemen for example since 2014 with no one giving a shit about it.

[scrollaway]

> Erm, no we are not

Yes, we are. Like I said upthread, we're sending aid and weapons en masse into Ukraine. Putin has put us on a shit-list of countries, and even called the sanctions a declaration of war: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60633482

It's a proxy war, but still a war, with high chances of escalation. It's also being fought online, over social networks, with Russians actively spreading propaganda on our media and networks.

I've not been drafted yet, but the likelihood is becoming higher over time. We are at war, it's just not official yet. But as far as Russia is concerned, it's not even official in Ukraine, so "official definitions" don't matter.

> And as far as I can tell, way more horrible are being done in Yemen

ctrl+f whataboutism on this page, please.

[hutzlibu]

"ctrl+f whataboutism on this page, please. "

I know, I know, only good propaganda supporting your cause is allowed here by your opinion.

But can you please explain to me, why a ukrainian child is worth more, than a child in yemen? Because they are also dying right now, too and in greater numbers. Caused by "our" allies. Not only in the past - but also today.

I think we need to be doing something about both. Otherwise it is just hypocrisy.

"It's a proxy war, but still a war, with high chances of escalation."

And yes, with every fanatic statement, chances of escalation are increasing. But have you heard of something called "Mutual assured destruction"? Sowjet Union did probably way worse than russia today, but was not attacked. That's why.

"I've not been drafted yet, but the likelihood is becoming higher over time. We are at war, it's just not official yet."

And do you know that you can go there and fight today? Ukraine is welcoming volunteers. But maybe bear in mind, that unlike in CoD, you might actually die there on day one. And it likely won't be heroic. War seldom is, nor black and white, especially not if it is in part a civil war. And you might end up fighting next to actual fascists. Not (only) against them, but with them. Stepan Bandera is considered a National Hero there to many. Google him if you are curious. And then about the Regiment Asow. And then about the ukrainian law, that was targeted against the russian language way before the war. Not against russian propaganda, but against the russian language(and people). Putin is a war criminal, belonging to Den Haag - but the ukrainian side are not made up by saints either.

""official definitions" don't matter."

And unlike in your opinion, official definitions actually matter a lot, because the moment russia attacks NATO territory - ALL NATO forces will react. Not before, no matter how great the lust for war, for people beating the drums of war online.

[detaro]

and the reasons given for adding them to the sanctions list are not "some form of process"? (We can certainly argue if the process is sufficient, but targeted sanctions against named individuals is not the same as just grabbing everything with a russian name on it. And yes, some people are complaining that governments actually insist on proving that things belong to sanctioned people before acting, but "some people are complaining" is not the same as policy and what actually happens)