[mike_k]

Do you really think there is no difference for US/EU with what kind of regime to cooperate _now_? Purely economical short term gains proved to be too risky even for Germany. Moral and cultural aspects are still important enough. Regarding nuke and other hi tech: it might turn out Russia is not as good at it as many anticipated.

[kkfx]

EU have the highest tech in the world despite it's big push toward finance, but lack natural resources and space, Russia do have an industrial system ready enough to benefit from EU tech and natural resources + space so yes, not only in purely economical terms but in practical terms such partnership is absolutely natural and with mutual benefit: Germany know that well, but since WWII they lost their sovereignty to the USA so they have had no choice, that's what happen. No special "risk".

Regarding tech while Russia is not Soviet Union it's still have much of military research and for the little we know is already more effective than the USA since it's development is state-led, not private companies led like most of things in USA. So even if far behind for various aspects is far forward than China in tech terms and China have one of the most developed industrial system to mass produce almost anything.

In moral and cultural aspect we EU Citizens have issues comprehending USA values and duplicity while have had even LESS issues with the Soviet. Morality is always a characteristic of the people to avoid social drifts, not much a government thing but in social terms we are more near Russian population than USA or UK ones, we are far more social than competing, just as an example. Essentially "Russian threat" is no threat for us EU citizens, it's at maximum a threat for the eastern Europe area where they switch from a Russian-led dictatorship to others planted by USA/UK after the cold war and even today many are nostalgic of the Soviet because they are less oppressive that current formal, not substantial, Democracies, just as a fresh example https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1619050/post-social... if you came from US/UK you probably simply never heard of but most nazi-alike and religious extremist that infest the east Europe are made by US/UK to counter the Soviet, do to so they start at the WWII time recycling original nazi and fascist, often letting them do their revenge business against their citizens, for instance while not formally Aldo Moro killing was a USA-made killing to stop Democrazia Cristiana party to reach an agreement with Partito Comunista Italiano, just to cite one. Criminal militia like Gladio where founded by USA and UK government, the same government that have founded nazi and fascist even after the start of WWII. Historical "Operation Unthinkable" and "Operation Dropshot" are other examples of criminal intent against us for the sake of UK and USA, the Soviet or the Russian never do something like that.

Consider that USA and UK government are FAR different from their own people and they are not much more Democratic than China or Russian dictatorship, just smarter, they appear less deadly on their own Citizens than them, they master propaganda very well, but at heart they are the same. For them Citizens are not Citizens but sheep to be kept in like "for their own sake" and of course for the shepherd interests. UE government in that sense are far more moderate and more often than not just puppet regimes. The level of detachments between People and who really command is abysmal these days.

[mike_k]

Good points. But I somehow hope we underestimate the moral aspect here (and the WWII lessons) that EU leaders and people take into account. Also, hasn't Russia proved to be an unpredictable and dangerous partner? Rethoric question: how can any European country justify making business with it now? (Sadly, it is still easy to imagine...)

[kkfx]

> hasn't Russia proved to be an unpredictable and dangerous partner?

IMVHO absolutely no. It prove to be a reliable and stable partner: they even keep up pumping gas, shipping carbon etc to the EU while under (partial) sanctions. They never close their door, actually the try many time to give EU the olive branch and the EU is forced by USA and UK to refuse, against EU interests...

So no, USA and UK gov prove to be unreliable partners, they want power and they do all the dirty tricks they can to grab and keep it, causing immense amount of suffering and dumping their waste on partner: 2008 subprime crisis? Dumped in EU. Overthrown MENA region dictatorship they once create with resulting mass immigration and civil wars? Against dumped in EU. Afghanistan obvious debacle after they create the talibans to fight URSS? They do not even advise up front their NATO EU partner before they live.

Of course, anyone do their own interest, that's perfectly normal, WWII was very well used by the USA in primis but was an European war at first so we can only blame ourselves for it, however so far lesson must be learnt: USA and UK gov. act for their own interest against their own citizens interest and against anyone else interests. Russian so far have obviously followed their own interests but not harming their partner. Our propaganda try to sell the Ukrainian war as something made by the Russian by surprise but if you just dig the press a very little bit you'll discover that's a complete lie, like Saddam mass-destruction weapons lie. The Ukrainian war initiate before 2014 while NATO expansion finance and arm nazi's in eastern Europe to keep it's expansion they promise they'll never do at Yalta conference after WWII. They form nazi's militias in Ukraine persecuting Russian-speaking population to a point of the Euromaidan genocide. Russians actually IMVHO have made a huge mistake: at that time instead of offering "assistance" and weapons to Russian-speaking Ukrainian they should have impromptu invading the entire Ukraine blitzkrieg-style (a super-expensive but doable risky move) stating a thing: we are here to eradicate nazi's, anyone trying to stop us declare us war, a nuclear war. That's will be risky of course, BUT effective, because at that time NATO haven't had enough propaganda on it's side to justify anything, NATO troops are well in the mud in Afghanistan and Iraq and public opinion can't be convinced that Russia is on the wrong side. They invade to stop a genocide with their official troops, not mercenary crocks, they march with their flag formally, nothing under the wood and with international press aside. A thing they do not learn from us.

Now they just can't keep the situation up so what they should have done in a risky move before they have done slowly and methodically now. But now NATO have had much more time to work on it's own public opinion depicting Russians ad the badass guys and have much more armed Ukrainian nazi's that in the meantime are now in control ALSO on regular Ukrainian army and the outcome of such slow move is a mess.

Honestly if I'm at Putin place I'll have a far harder line: a public discourse at United Nations: NATO thief, the empire of lie (cfr actual Russian propaganda) have to stop now or face a nuclear holocaust and all NATO countries Citizens should decide if they are Democratic and so, people that decide, or subject and so people that obey to they oppressors in chief against their own interest. With a bit of condiments: mass ballistic exercise around all possible borders. However I'm a Democrat witch means I think people can decide if trained and pushed to, Putin is a dictator so he think as NATO countries think that Citizens are not Citizens but flock of sheep to be pastured as the powerful wish. And that's war the real error: the entire '900 teach that yes, if trained to be sheep citizens unfortunately evolve as sheep, easily mastered by propaganda. But that's not "by nature" they also can be trained to be Citizens, for some it still not work, but for a big enough number of them it does work. Unfortunately most élites reason like that https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs

As a European honestly for individuals I see no issues in doing business with USA or UK citizens, they tend to be even more honest than some European in the mean. However at State level for me NATO must be ended, EU must ask Russia for a EAEU partnership with the western EU led by France (of course with a government, not a neoliberal dictatorship that commit high treason and is still in power) and the eastern EU led by Russia. That would be a balanced partnership that benefit EU, Russia, AND ALSO USA and UK because avoiding Russia-China partnership means avoid WWIII witch will happen soon in the present scenario. Because in the present scenario NATO gift China pushing Russia in their arm witch means gift China of hi-tech military gears and immense natural resources in an age of scarcity. China NEED a war to nourish it's own people, but they can't fight UK or USA, without Russia, they can with in few years.

[NicoJuicy]

Russia needs the gas too or they would sacrifice 40% of their GDP immediately.