[emptysongglass]

> Everyone ... knows west lead Ukraine on, refused to listen to Russian concerns (valid or not), all for a defunct military alliance that has lost its purpose and only exists for expansion.

This is just propaganda of another kind. NATO exists to protect states from the terror of bully-states like Russia. That's why you see states famously neutral now clamoring to get in.

Russia concern-trolled its way right into an invasion and it looks like its propaganda worked, on you.

[pomdapi]

There's plenty of concern trolling to go around.

And Poroshenko sending the army and battalions of neo-nazis to attack Ukraine's own citizens wasn't a first punch thrown by a bully ? Why didn't NATO nations or the UN react then to stop the massacre ?

They happily ignored it, which gave Putin the excuse then for Crimea and to send his famous "Green Men" back then. Letting it rot, and worse, enabling the worst elements of Ukranian society gave him an excuse in front ofthe Russian public to start this whole murderous theater piece now.

Similarly, 5.4 million dead in Congo between 1998 - 2008. What did anybody do about it ? Nothing. Most people in the west don't even know it happened. Same as Yemen's 370'000 dead. I'll also conveniently skip Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq's million dead from sanctions, or more recently arming and funding Isis and Al-Quaed against Assad.

So let's pretend this has anything to do with any morals or protection of others from bullies, or democracy - or if you think different I'd say your local propaganda worked on you.

NATO is just the stick to the western lifestyle carrot - while in fact setup for an extractive system centered on dollar surplus recycled by the world's regional elites through Wall Street.

Russia, China, Putin and Xi are trying to create their own opposing version, and will be using the coming economic crisis born of this war to effect it.

It's all just the Great Game of colonial great powers all over again, 2022 Modern Redux.

[emptysongglass]

> So let's pretend this has anything to do with any morals or protection of others from bullies, or democracy - or if you think different I'd say your local propaganda worked on you.

Apart from comparisons to what the West did when... insert-your-favorite-conflict-choice-here being more of the whataboutism I expect -- though pointing it out never seems to stop such facile arguments -- as a Danish resident working directly with Ukrainian software developers daily, the war against Ukraine is very close to my heart.

Reducing our protests and plaintive cries to stop the war to more of the din of the political elites or the heartless machinations of the Great Powers is out of touch with the very real fears of former satellites of the USSR and the very real heartbreak of Europeans for our sisters and brothers in Ukraine.

[rdrock]

You either toe the party line or you are an enemy troll is what we are going for then.

Putin is a bully and has a lot to answer for, assasinations and election meddling including. That does not absolve west of its sins or make what they are doing right in this situation. This was a totally un-necessary conflict at this time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

As much as they would like for it to be so, Russia is not North Korea. The result of all these sanctions would be a Russia China alliance. An opening for China to invade Taiwan, founding of competing and fragmented global institutions, alternatives to SWIFT, because nations are watching and no one likes to be vurnerable.

> NATO exists to protect states from the terror of bully-states like Russia. Fat lot of protection it offered Ukraine while being the primary subject of contention.

> clamoring to get in A couple of inconsequential states wanting in while the major players wanting to chart their own course in defence is telling you the direction it is headed in.

[emptysongglass]

The Mearsheimer video is Russian apologism disguised as realpolitik. It has nothing to do with reality. One needs only read the ravings of Putin on the essential unity of Ukraine and Russia (the manic delusions of a spurned ex) to understand how dated Mearsheimer is.

> A couple of inconsequential states wanting in while the major players wanting to chart their own course in defence is telling you the direction it is headed in.

You'll need to point out specifically which major players are running away from NATO because NATO has never been stronger than now at the height of Russian predation. See Germany's revised defense budget or the increases of defense budgets across the board of all other NATO members in response to Putin's war.