[twofornone]

Israel is surrounded by Arab Muslims who outnumber Jews 100:1 and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion. I ask honestly, is it really so wrong for a nation to implement laws to preserve its culture, particularly when it's people constitute a tiny fraction of the global population?

Or is support of cultural preservation only virtuous when the alternative is labeled "gentrification"?

[camel_Snake]

> and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion

As a biracial Jew from Pakistan I can assure you this is false. The modern enmity between Jews and Muslims began around the time of Israel's creation [1].

As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort. You can celebrate and keep alive one's own culture without the exclusion and denial of rights to others. I think the idea of ethnostates run counter to the core values of most modern, liberal democracies.

[1] https://dailytimes.com.pk/97778/the-jews-of-pakistan/

[Siira]

My state-mandated history textbooks disagree.

[Veen]

Nonsense. There are no end of examples of Muslim anti-semitism before the foundation of Israel. Just one example, the Grand Mufti of Palestine, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was a strong supporter of Hitler who frequently repeated the blood libel in his writing.

[camel_Snake]

Cherry-picking individual quotes or statements does not reflect the attitudes of global Muslims as a whole. I'll instead link to the following wiki article, which is long, but here's a particularly relevant excerpt.

> Antisemitism has increased in the Muslim world during modern times. While Bernard Lewis and Uri Avnery date the increase in antisemitism to the establishment of Israel, M. Klein suggests that antisemitism could have been present in the mid-19th century.

> Scholars point to European influences, including those of the Nazis (see below), and the establishment of Israel as the root causes of antisemitism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam#The_Qura...

[Veen]

That’s not what cherry-picking means. The previous comment made a claim. I gave a what I considered a valid counter example undermining that claim. That’s an entirely reasonable response.

Somewhat ironically, that Wikipedia article is cherry picking. It gives lots of examples that support its thesis and fails to mention or downplays counter examples, of which there are very many.

[sdoering]

Of which you - contrary to the other commenter in the thread - failed to provide sources of.

You cherry pick one example and talk about there being many, many more. Yet it is the other side shows sources that you with few words "argue" are not valid - also without providing arguments, sources, anything.

You are not discussing in good faith.

[poisonarena]

Absolute nonsense

[twofornone]

>I think the idea of ethnostates run counter to the core values of most modern, liberal democracies.

But not to the core values of middle eastern Arab countries, which is the point to limiting the possibility of a sizeable proportion of immigrants imposing their incompatible culture onto host nations.

>As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort.

There is no reason to presume that the values of your "modern, liberal democracies" will be maintained if there is no effort to preserve them. The rest of the world is far less concerned with your ideas regarding women's or LGBT rights. Allusions to the fourteen words are effectively a false equivalence, there is a massive range between maintaining a liberal way of life and going on a multinational genocidal war campaign.

>As a biracial Jew from Pakistan I can assure you this is false. The modern enmity between Jews and Muslims began around the time of Israel's creation [1].

The enmity is baked into the Koran and therefore approximately as old as Islam.

[camel_Snake]

> But not to the core values of middle eastern Arab countries

Source, dearly lacking. Though I'm uncertain how you would support this claim. I tried digging up some examples, but the best I found was a list of countries [0] supporting 'right to return' laws with accelerated naturalization if you are of the 'favored' ethnicity. I don't see any arab or middle eastern countries on this list. I sincerely would appreciate any supporting articles you have towards this claim.

I agree liberal values must be defended. I just don't believe illiberal methods such as those described in the OP are effective methods of doing so. I think the world is growing more concerned with things like LGBT and women's rights in large part because of the freedom of exchange of information, ideas, and experiences. These are accelerated by both the internet and multicultural cities and nations which aren't possible with ethnicity-based immigration laws.

You're right I should not have alluded to the Fourteen Words, I could have picked a better example. The similarities in attitude frighten me, however. Elevating the safety and prosperity of ethnic group A to the detriment of group B is not promoting or maintaining a liberal way of life, despite what we might want to call it.

> The enmity is baked into the Koran and therefore approximately as old as Islam.

I won't rehash my previous response to this idea, but leave a hopefully unbiased wiki link [1] on the subject with just one small anecdote. The holiday of purim is an entire commemoration of the 'elimination' of a certain peoples. Does this mean a certain enmity is baked into the Torah towards Amalekites? Do you think this history actually gives you a negative bias towards the present day descendants of Hamman?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#Countries_with...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam#The_Qura...

[bo1024]

I believe the concern here is whether a group of people who live in a state and are governed by its laws have equal rights and democratic representation, or whether they're treated as a lower class of citizen. I don't think citing cultural preservation, as important as it is, addresses those concerns.

[throwaway599281]

> and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion.

What does the Talmud say about the Goyim?

>is it really so wrong for a nation to implement laws to preserve its culture, particularly when it's people constitute a tiny fraction of the global population

It's ok, natural and healthy for Israel, but not for the rest of the world, where that is nationalism and equates to ideologies of the 1930s.

[edanm]

> It's ok, natural and healthy for Israel, but not for the rest of the world, where that is nationalism and equates to ideologies of the 1930s.

You say that, but that's ridiculous. I can't become a citizen of any other country without that country's explicit permission, and many countries won't allow just anyone to immigrate.

[eli_gottlieb]

>Or is support of cultural preservation only virtuous when the alternative is labeled "gentrification"?

Well yeah. "Cultural preservation" is only good when the NGO class supports it. When they don't like it, it's racism.