[colpabar]

It's insane to me that people don't think this way. The mainstream US media, in perfect lockstep with the gov, told us all that iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and then we found out it was a complete fabrication. And most of those people still have jobs!

[einarfd]

I remember following news during the buildup to that war. It was fairly obvious that those WMD claims was weak, and that was definitely brought up in the news. While I was mostly following European sources, so American sources might have been less insistent on that. But seriously, if your country wants to go to war, and local news sources is the only thing you look at. Then you aren't trying very hard to stay informed, and if you are fortunate enough to speak English, there is so many serious news sources out there with different viewpoints it's crazy. So there is not much of an excuse.

[pasabagi]

I'm reminded a little bit of a clip[0] in which an AP reporter challenged a State Department official about some of his claims about the Russian plans for a war on Ukraine. It's aged in a weird way, because of course, the war happened - but it does show the weird dynamic at play between journalists, the people, and the state security apparatus.

Essentially, they can't give you the details. Sometimes they lie, for national security, operational security, or even pathological, political reasons.

I guess the one takeaway that's stuck in my mind from this morass is that the people who led us to war in Iraq should have gone to jail. That would have been the only way to maintain the integrity of the security apparatus they misused to trick their nations into going along with it.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4PbCiHOtR8

[Clubber]

Did Russia ever stage a false flag operation before their invasion of Ukraine? I don't recall hearing about it.

[raxxorrax]

False flag operations were very common in Ukraine from both sides of the parties. It was often a war about publicity and perception to get third parties to act.

[lmm]

Depends what exactly you mean by "false flag operation". But South Ossetia seemed to follow much the same playbook as Ukraine.

[kuraudo]

Russian/orthodox world perspective: whether the west likes it or not, ukraine's illegal coup government went out of its way to oppress Russians all over the country. Azov was on a campaign of war crimes against the east long before the current war: "russia instigated the ethnic Russians in the east to rebel!" Come the cries, but, even if true, our answer is to shrug and say the United States does this all the time. Turn about is fair play. Moreover, the view from Greece and Serbia is that the United States and Europe are causing needless Ukrainian deaths by encouraging them to fight a hopeless war. Western propaganda claims lives in this case.

Just FYI as how the east is looking at this.

[lmm]

> whether the west likes it or not, ukraine's illegal coup government went out of its way to oppress Russians all over the country. Azov was on a campaign of war crimes against the east long before the current war: "russia instigated the ethnic Russians in the east to rebel!" Come the cries, but, even if true, our answer is to shrug and say the United States does this all the time. Turn about is fair play.

Sure, and I think that's why Russia more or less got away with Crimea and Donbas. But this kind of open invasion seems like a different level, something we haven't seen (post-9/11 notwithstanding) since Serbia/Kosovo, and indeed that's the parallel Russia often draws - but the justification for that was a well-documented massacre of civilians. Is that kind of thing evidenced in what the Azov Battalion et al are accused of? (Genuine question, I'm interested to hear what's being said on every side).

[colpabar]

> Then you aren't trying very hard to stay informed

I don’t disagree with this, but I don’t think the burden should entirely be on us common folk. We are the ones being lied to. We can’t only focus on “staying informed,” it is critical that we start demanding the truth from the institutions we’re supposed to trust. If they don’t change, we need new institutions.

[zmgsabst]

https://www.SpacePowerMonkey.com

I agree we need new and federated institutions — particularly around things like intelligence.

[Clubber]

Back then, news was thought to be a counter to government. Government had its power and news told the truth about that power. This turned out to be an illusion and that illusion has been breaking down over the last 20 years, but it's very stubborn. I first remember it during the Clinton / Monica Lewinsky scandal. All the news outlets chose to ignore it. Drudge ended up getting the scoop at which point the news had to cover it. If it weren't for Drudge, it might not have ever come out. This was what, 1996?

There isn't much in the way of alternatives either. When they do pop up, they are coincidentally labeled as "misinformation," and censored.

[newyankee]

I am nowhere a supporter of attack on Ukraine, however when I open a reddit page I see 10s of posts in seemingly unrelated subreddits, probably organically upvoted by people angry at Russia and with sympathy towards Ukraine which highlights the brave fight of the small nation. However the skeptic in me feels that a lot of this information is also being orchestrated to the top behind the scenes, which in this case makes the West not too different than Russia.

[Nursie]

In Russia if you report the wrong thing you go to prison.

The west is not remotely like Russia in this matter.

[jonasenordin]

Yes, for individuals, it's worse. For accurate information, it's probably a wash, or a close call. There are so many other ways of biasing information streams than overt oppression.

[Nursie]

This is nonsense. If the opposing viewpoint can’t even be put across due to the threat of jail time, you only get one. Whatever manipulation you feel occurs in other systems, outright suppression of dissenting opinion is worse, for the individual and for accuracy of information.

[soundnote]

Such as social media banning the Hunter Biden story just before the election and suspending the New York Post's account?

[Nursie]

Boohoo, the social media companies decided what they wanted published on their platform. I am so oppressed.

No, not such as that, because there are other places you can talk about it and reporters are free to report it in their own publications.

Meanwhile in Russia, mentioning things that go against the official line gets you actually imprisoned for years.

Get a grip. You are not being oppressed. You may need to spend less time consuming social media though, and realise that what facebook or twitter allow is not the whole world, just a noisy subset. You are allowed to post your hunter biden conspiracy theories elsewhere, you can even stand up your own website and post it all there, and the worst that will happen is people will laugh at you. In Russia you are not.

[pydry]

Meanwhile Russia concocts evidence of chemical weapons labs and those same people who believed in WMDs cant fathom how Russians could fall for this shit....

[kuraudo]

Biological; nuland admitted that the US did fund those labs and that they did deal with dangerous viruses, but that they weren't for biological warfare. Either way, the charge has a lot more weight since the us funded labs exist. Biological weapons?? Probably not.. but here is the thing: Meanwhile here in the west, I am reliably told those labs don't exist while Russians are getting ready to use chemical weapons, just like in syria. Except the Russian chemical weapon charges were found to be bogus just like the Syrian ones. This comes AFTER Russian mod warns its people that the US will be attempting to false flag them with another "chemical weapon attack." Who do I believe? The west is at the bottom of that list.

[shapefrog]

While simultaneously people who rant constantly about "mainstream meadia" claim that because RT broadcast it, that it must be true and can in no way be propaganda.

[kuraudo]

I don't think anyone has ever said that. Even people who enjoy rt understands who funds it.

[shapefrog]

I hear it (in the US and Europe) it is something you would hear regularly in Russia - I also hear that "mainstream meadia" constantly lie but Fox News is a beacon of truth, and they too are on "our" side in the fight against the corrupt mainstream media and fake news crisis.

Personally I dont see how anout with more than a single IQ point can hold such a belief honestly in good faith, but clearly plenty do.