[terryf]

As a manager - I would love it if someone tells me that! This makes my life so much easier!

It means, that I will not have to worry about figuring out a good place for you to grow into. It also means that I will not have to worry about finding a replacement for you after you get promoted.

Hell, if you tell me that I'll do everything I can to give you a raise asap.

Tip: Your manager really, really wants to hear what you really honestly think. Even if it's not a positive thing (and just wanting to continue doing what you're doing is very positive!). It's super hard to guess what people are trying to say because most people don't just tell you straight. Of course there are exceptions - that's probably a sign of a crappy manager. If that's the case, sorry, you can probably find a better job.

[karaterobot]

> Tip: Your manager really, really wants to hear what you really honestly think.

As the original commenter noted, the person who was honest about what they really thought was the one laid off when the time came. I won't say it's true for you, but at many organizations "I really want to hear what you honestly think..." has a second clause: "... so that I know who my most valuable 'resources' are."

I'm unconvinced that (from the employee's perspective) the best way to engage with management or HR is radical transparency.

[smallerfish]

> As the original commenter noted, the person who was honest about what they really thought was the one laid off when the time came

It could have been for any of 100 other reasons.

It really boils down to whether your manager is bullshit or not. If they are, switch teams or switch jobs. If you can't be honest with your manager, it's not going to work out.

[mgh2]

Humans, in their majority, are natural liars and dislike the truth (even when they say the opposite)

Treat managers as you will most tech companies: the information you share will most likely be used against you.

Being honest is not in your best interest, nether is lying, not divulging information (privacy) is your best approach.

Unless necessary, be very careful what you share; your manager represents the company, and their interests are not often aligned with yours.

[terryf]

Indeed you bring up a good point. There is risk. However, you never know what is the complete reason for someone getting fired, unless you are the one doing the firing. There are lots of things that do not get disclosed. It's also very easy to assume reasons if you're a bystander and be 100% wrong. I've certainly done that a lot.

It could easily have been that the other person got fired for completely unrelated reasons. It of course could also have been that he did in fact get fired for the reason suspected. In this case the question is again - what does the parent commenter want to optimize for? Is it peace of mind or job stability?

If the situation of having to lie is really bothering them, then perhaps the risk of things going wrong is worth taking? The original commenter is the only person that can decide that.

Also, if they keep lying, what's going to guarantee that they will not get promoted because they accidentally did well enough? Or if, indeed they keep getting not promoted, then will that look bad? Are they in an "up or out" level?

[novok]

I think it depends on what kind of unambitious it is. I have one guy who I don't connect with much who I estimate is pretty much like the OP. Has a kid, doesn't want a lot of stress, doesn't really want to proceed further, but is happy to do his current job and has a lot of experience as a senior.

But at the same time, this guy just jumps in whatever you ask him to do, and figures it out pretty quickly, doesn't need hand holding and is fairly independent and gets stuff done. He does his job and is a very low maintenance employee overall. He also updates his tickets / status as you ask him. He's an adult.

Since I know I don't have to be responsible for coaching him or moving his career forward or fixing issues or reminding him to do his job or figure out what to do, he's pretty good! He gets the job done and I don't have to do a lot of work for and is a reliable guy. If layoffs come, he would not be on the bottom of the list.

Other employees that don't want to be ambitious, or are picky about their workloads, that I have to remind constantly to do stuff, create conflicts I have to resolve and so on are significantly more work for the manager. If they are also not performing then yes, they would be the people on the bottom of the list.

So overall, if you want to be unambitious to advance after the terminal level of 'sr engineer', be a low stress easy employee to manage who is overall productive and have a good or neutral personal relationship with and it's really doubtful you'll be on the layoff list anytime soon. It lets managers be more effective and bigger with their team, because one high maintenance employee has the workload of 5 low maintenance ones.

Also only %10 of engineers ever advance into management or staff engineering leadership positions, so it's somewhat expected there will be a lot of people who are not going to go further anyway.

You could couch you being unambitious in asking your manager, how can I become a low maintenance employee for you? What would make your job easier in respect to managing me? How could I reduce your stress load? Tell him you don't want to be a manager (super common in engineering) but you do want to make life good for you, him and the team.

> I'm unconvinced that (from the employee's perspective) the best way to engage with management or HR is radical transparency.

I totally get that, and I was like that before being a manager. But once you become a manager, you realize there are a bunch of things that are actually very helpful to be transparent about, and other things that are not and it can be hard to communicate what those are unless you have a buddy who's a manager elsewhere and likes talking about the good and bad of their job outside of work. I really recommend that people do the "tour of duty" for 2 years into management to understand what it is. It will make your future career way less stressful and everything makes way more sense. https://twitter.com/mipsytipsy/status/1345574901818609664

[thrwy_918]

> Your manager really, really wants to hear what you really honestly think

I mean, yes, this is almost always true, but that does not mean that it's always in your best interests to tell your manager what you honestly think.

[terryf]

Absolutely. But it's also a question of what you want to optimize. Is it more about making sure you keep your current job, is it about maximizing income or is it about having peace of mind?

First, figure out what is the probability of you being able to find a new job. For most developers that are reasonably good, in the current market, finding a new job of at least the same compensation (probably more!) is possible, if not easy.

Assuming the calculation from the previous item goes well and if you want to optimize for peace of mind, say what you feel. If it turns out you have a bad manager, start looking for a new job. Getting fired immediately in the situation described in the original comment is extremely unlikely. If you get the impression that things are not going as expected, start looking for a new job.

If you want to optimize for keeping the current job and not for peace of mind, yes, technically the safest way for now is keep doing what the original poster said. However, how long can you keep that up? How bad will it make you feel to keep faking?

Also, it's very common to over-estimate the likelyhood of extreme edge cases happening. They are possible, but need to be weighted with the likelyhood and the risk. Again, if you are fairly certain that you can get a new job if needed, then the risk is small and the likelyhood (as you mentioned) is low. However, the peace of mind change can be substantial. To me it seems worth it. Maybe to you it wouldn't be. Then yes, don't do it. But it's important to think of all the factors and not just focus on not rocking the boat. Sometimes risks are worth taking. Sometimes not. Life's complicated and you only get one go at it :)

[scarface74]

It’s always in my best interest to tell my manager that I don’t want to get promoted.

If I don’t tell him and they surprise me with a promotion, that’s not a great outcome. I know I’m a horrible people manager (did that for one horrible year). But I’m pretty good with managing projects.

If I do tell him and he forces it on me anyway or I can tell that’s not what he wants to hear, I need to know that and be prepared to change jobs.

But then again, I enjoy coming in fixing a problem, training, and “putting myself out of a job”. That isn’t exactly the model of someone who is interested in career progression at one job…

[jrmiii]

I will add that these types tend to amass deep expertise in what they do as well, because they're not just "passing through" the responsibilities - it's their craft.

They are incredible teammates and, in my experience, contribute more than "their share" to the mission.

[terryf]

Absolutely! There is always a risk of stagnation and turning into a cynical downer, but if it goes well, then it goes really well.

[hashtag-til]

> Hell, if you tell me that I'll do everything I can to give you a raise asap.

This is not how salary raises work IMHO.

In my experience as a new (~2 years) manager, you get many questions when proposing salary raises to people perceived as happy, satisfied and agreeable.

I always feel like I need to put more effort on behalf of my reports and kind of repeat many times the obvious fact that it is better if we don't wait for people to find another job so that we - as a company - come back begging for them to accept a counter-offer raise.

[KMag]

The problem I've always had in asking for a raise is that it seems to me in a downturn situation, dissatisfied over-performers are probably second in line for layoffs after under-performers. If you can't give them a raise, and they're likely to jump ship soon, and will likely land another job shortly. (I'm not sure how unemployment time of recent layoffs feed back into employer's unemployment insurance rates.)

So, my career has been a big raise my first year out of college, followed shortly by a 2x lateral move to another company, followed by a bunch of single-digit percentage annual increases, followed by another doubling of my salary. A couple of times managers have also pro-actively scheduled meetings with senior management when they feel they've screwed me over on bonus/salary adjustment, and I got assurances they knew they owed me once there was more budget available.

I know I'm too agreeable, but I don't ask for a raise unless I have a written offer in-hand. I've seen varying advice on how to handle counter-offers, but it's also risky to accept a counter-offer if there's a company down-turn, as you're now more expensive and recently have shown a willingness to leave the company.

I guess the solution is just to be confident in your ability to quickly find a new job if you're laid off. I've given plenty of interviews (somewhere between 200 and 500 in my career) and am very confident in my ability to both leet-code and pass technical interview questions. Yet, I'm very hesitant to risk being in the position of interviewing when I don't currently have a job.

[terryf]

Sure - it does depend on the company quite a bit, but still justifying a raise is always difficult. That's intentional. Doiing this is a big part of your job - figuring out who you should fight for and then fight for that person.

[throwaway874653]

> Tip: Your manager really, really wants to hear what you really honestly think.

Ofcourse. I too want the same. But neither do. As an IC I want hard to be replace me and get top pay for my ability. Exact opposite is my managers incentive.

[songzme]

okay I will try this thank you for the suggestion!

[terryf]

Good luck! Hope it works out for you. There are always risks of course, but in the current market, keep in mind that it's highly likely that they need you more than you need them.

[rramadass]

No, please don't !

Without thinking through all possible consequences do not take any action which will jeopardize your status-quo. There is nothing wrong with your current strategy for your 1:1s. You should know your Manager very well before following "terryf"s suggestion; most Managers will not respond positively to somebody on their team who they think is "stagnating" (slacker, bad for team morale and growth etc. etc.). The worst-case scenario is, you get laid off while the best-case scenario is you never get a raise again.