[samatman]

You mention elsewhere that your heat doesn't come from a heat pump.

It is absurd that you brag of low wattage when you're using gas directly to heat your home. A heat pump is one of two things a household can do to meaningfully reduce energy consumption, and the other one is not owning a car.

The rest of it is feel-good at best and self-righteous at the worst, when people start yelling at each other about imported food and aren't using heat pumps.

[cptskippy]

The reality is that fuel type isn't a choice for the vast majority of people. A heat pump installed is a year or more salary for most people if it's even an option.

Not owning a car is equally impractical in many parts of the world unless you happen to have considerable salary.

Everyone doing small things to reduce their overall impact during peak hours is something everyone can participate in at no cost and can have major impact.

[andrew_]

> A heat pump installed is a year or more salary for most people if it's even an option.

I think nuance is required here. I installed what is called a "heat pump" in the US for $2500 USD this last summer. So you can see how claiming that $2500 is most people's salary for the year seems a little suspect from my POV.

[vmh1928]

How many btu? How many sq feet or meters are you trying to heat or cool? Are you in the U.S.? What brand? $2500 seems low or for a small living space.

copied from the web (so you know it's true.) "30 BTU of heating output per 1 sq ft of living space. For every sq ft of living space, you need about 30 BTU of heating output. That means, for example, that for a 1,000 sq ft home, you would require a 30,000 BTU heat pump (that's a 2.5-ton heat pump)."

Cost from 2021 (so it's more now with shortages and inflation.) For $2500 USD you are under 2 tons.

https://www.avsheatingandair.com/hvac-cost/heat-pump-install...

[andrew_]

> Are you in the U.S.?

Indeed

> What brand?

Carrier. 2.5 ton.

In fairness, you reference a single retailer. And that's really important here - retailers will always have a significant markup. You want to go to a wholesaler like CE [1] for a good deal. Most HVAC wholesalers and suppliers will give walk-ins an above wholesale price, which is still less than retail.

> For $2500 USD you are under 2 tons.

Certainly not. Perhaps with installation, but not the equipment. Here's some super lazy validation https://www.google.com/search?q=carrier+2.5+ton+heat+pump&sx...

[1] https://www.carrierenterprise.com/search.html?query=heat%20p...

[bal00ns]

Most people are not able to install a heat pump themselves. I consider myself a fairly technical DIY sort of person but was not comfortable installing it myself. Installation is going to be the majority of the cost for the typical person buying a new heat pump.

[andrew_]

The labor to install mine was $450. Granted I'm in the Southeast of the U.S. so YMMV, but that is not universally true and shouldn't be stated as such.

[bushbaba]

Bay Area heat pump install cost can reach 20k.

[danans]

A new gas furnace plus A/C with the required high efficiency ducts will also cost about the same in the Bay Area. The 20k heat pump makes sense if you have to replace your entire HVAC system anyway due to age.

Cheaper options that work in parallel with your existing furnace are ductless mini splits with one or two indoor units serving main living areas.

[hervature]

A suit from Bijan also costs 25k. Am I supposed to extrapolate that all suits costs 25k? You are doing exactly this especially with the use of "can" which automatically implies an upper bar.

[bushbaba]

No but it’s to say that for many in the us installing a heat pump heater is a major expense where the roi will take many years to break even from savings

[danans]

A huge number of US households install or replace a central air conditioning system each year.

The difference between a heat pump and an air conditioner is small (flow reversing valves, defroster on external compressor fins, some different control software).

Those air conditioners should be replaced with heat pumps instead. At the very least, it provides summer cooling and a secondary backup heat source. Think of it as plug-in hybrid heating.

The problem is that there are relatively few contractors offering these, and they are mostly targeting the luxury market. Similarly, manufacturers have positioned heat pumps as high-end devices, rather than reversible A/Cs.

It is not even a skills gap issue. For the same reasons described above, if a technician can install an A/C they can install a heat pump. We need more technicians and more HVAC contractors willing to install them, which requires more consumers to demand them.

[dahfizz]

Everything in the Bay Area is a major expense. This does not really enlighten the overall discussion.

[na85]

I was quoted more than $25000 to have one installed here on Vancouver island.

[cptskippy]

> I installed what is called a "heat pump" in the US for $2500 USD this last summer.

That sounds like a mini-split.

I'm in the US and to me a heat pump involves drilling a bore hole and installing a ground loop.

That costs anywhere from $1,500 to $10,000 depending on soil composition. Then you have the heat pump which ranges from $1,500 up to $10,000. Don't forget your home might have an older furnace, possibly gas or oil that probably needs to be replaced. Along with air handlers and any duct work. And that's only if your home is equipped with a conventional system.

For an older home equipped with radiators or baseboard heaters you're probably better off swapping out your oil or gas for electric but that comes at a cost.

[colinmhayes]

You're thinking of a geothermal heat pump which I do not think is what OP was talking about. Heat pumps are ac/furnace 2 in 1 systems that run on electricity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

[samatman]

This just isn't accurate though, you're using a definition of heat pump that's personal rather than shared.

Here let me prove it: https://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/heat-pump...

If you're going to insist that air source heat pumps don't exist then yes, heat pumps are very expensive. They do however, and especially in non-Scandinavian Europe, they will work fine.

[cptskippy]

> This just isn't accurate though, you're using a definition of heat pump that's personal rather than shared.

TBH, that is the definition of heat pump that I grew up with. When people say heat pumps, I immediately think of ground source heat pumps.

[samatman]

Well then, I take it back that it isn't a shared definition in that sense.

But it's a pity, because the air source ones are basically AC units which can also run backward to heat your home, and if more people knew that, they'd install them.

[dahfizz]

Sure, that's fair. But if you use gas for all your heating and cooking, you should not smugly post on HN about how you are below average electricity usage, its so easy, and everyone else needs to wake up.

[eldaisfish]

what would be great is if we stopped amplifying misleading messaging from some of the biggest polluters on the planet - oil companies, shipping companies and agriculture. Personal responsibility is great but it's a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to what just one of these industries could do if they so wanted.

Shipping, for example, has great potential to reduce emissions yet most large companies do everything in their power to pass minimum standards in territorial waters and then it's a free for all on international waters.

[therealdrag0]

Shipping is the most efficient mode of transport though?

[stjohnswarts]

Energy efficiency != green footprint. Gas is amazingly efficient, near 100%, certainly as good as a heat pump on 100% carbon neutral energy. However the green footprint it awful compared to an electric heatpump.

[pedrocr]

Amazingly a modern heat pump running on electricity generated by 100% gas is more efficient at heating than burning the gas for heat directly. Modern heat pumps are 5x efficient so you break even at even just 20% thermal efficiency of the power plant and gas plants are much more efficient than that. If you use the waste heat of the power plant for something else useful it's even better. Switching everyone to heat pumps would help even if 100% of your grid electricity was obtained by burning gas and obviously pretty much everywhere does much better than that.

[Reason077]

> "Gas is amazingly efficient, near 100%, certainly as good as a heat pump on 100% carbon neutral energy."

Heat pumps achieve far in excess of 100% efficiency. You get several times more heat energy out than electrical energy goes in.

Of course, gas has in previous years been very cheap in many regions. So despite their efficiency advantage, often there hasn't been enough of an economic advantage to justify the upfront cost. But with the recent gas crisis, that might now be changing in Europe.