[throwaway_9357]

I am disgusted at all 3 political sides involved.

Most disgusted with EU/US, followed by Ukrainian government and finally by the Russian Government.

A war does not happen for no reason. Putin is a known to be a rational actor. Obviously ordinary people do not want war. So you have to ask yourself, what events led to the war? What was done to prevent it? What is done to stop it now?

Why am I disgusted with US/EU? Firstly the double standards make me sick. I am not going to go further into this to avoid buTwHatAbout. The cancellation of everything Russian, the message that every Russian is responsible and statements that they want to choke the Russian economy makes me and my people feel hated. This is accepted xenophobia.

Secondly Russia has been clear since 2008 that it would rather go to war than let Ukraine join NATO. They absolutely should not have sponsored Ukrainian nationalist parties or ever had their troops or weapons set foot there. They have been (relatively) silent about what was going on in Donbass and Lugansk. I hosted two refugees from there. Truly horrific stories coming from there for 8 years, and the West just downplays it. It is very clear to me that the current UA government is a puppet of the West that takes advantage of support from western Ukrainians who are quite different from central and eastern Ukrainians.

Thirdly they are now actively encouraging war by sending weapons, by pre training the troops there. My uncle was in Ukrainian Armed Forces, he quit and left back to our family in Russia because they were constantly brainwashed to hate Russia and everything Russian.

Now Ukraine, their leader is either a puppet or incredibly stupid. If he was warned for months that Russia is going to invade and has 190,000 troops at his borders while warning against NATO relationships. He comes out and says Ukraine will work to join NATO and will also develop its own nuclear weapons?? His recent actions feel like they intentionally are chosen to make it as difficult as possible for the next regime that will be installed rather than what would be best for the Ukrainian people. Like it or not he should understand that if the worlds largest nuclear power wants its neighbor disarmed from enemy weapons, it will be.

Finally the Russian government. I really wish they went with another approach. But I don't know what to suggest, don't do anything and let the West have its way? Continue talks that have been going on in circles for 8 years? Bomb the military infrastructure and leave it at that? I would have probably went with this but who knows what the consequences would be compared to now. I can see where they are coming from. The last time we had to defend the narrow UA/Belarus - West border we lost almost 30mil lives. Now if that border becomes much longer and a NATO - Russia border, flat and so close to all key cities - that is an existential threat. And the fact that the West doesn't seem to respect that and can't even give a NATO moratorium on Ukraine to avoid war makes me feel really uneasy.

[phaedrix]

Thanks for posting this; I've had a lot of trouble trying to figure out how Putin is justifying what seems like obvious aggression against another sovereign nation.

The tl;dr I think is simply that - Putin does not consider ukraine a soveign nation -- he (and I guess many russians) consider it part of russia; e.g. a wayward child that needs to be brought back into the family.

Anyway, thanks. I don't agree, but I think it's extremely important to understand both sides, otherwise no conversation can ever happen.

[ethics13]

From one Russian to another, не валяй дурака. There was no precedent of NATO anything. NATO didn't attack or threaten your land. Ukraine never attacked Russia. Russia did with Donbas and then Crimea.

Your post embodies the propaganda that Russians in Russia swallowed, hook, bait, and even the lasso.

[nowherebeen]

Yeah, a lot of his arguments don't really make sense if you break it down. The logic is similar to what Chinese people from China think on political issues.

It's always some shadowy government coming for them and they must defend themselves and rid of them (i.e. attack). When in doubt, blame the West.

It's crazy how ingrained it is for nationalists from current and former communist countries.

[m_ke]

Maybe ask yourself why all of your closest neighbors are/were begging to join NATO.

[MattGaiser]

> Thirdly they are now actively encouraging war by sending weapons

The alternative to sending weapons being Ukraine being brutally beaten rather than given a chance to defend itself. There is a reason that nearly every former Soviet occupied country fled to NATO.

[yellowbanana]

> The alternative to sending weapons being Ukraine being brutally beaten rather than given a chance to defend itself.

I really don't understand this point, Ukraine is very unlikely to win against russia. giving them more weapons is just going to make the war long and more brutal.

The sane thing is the diplomatic route and give putin enought to stop the war.

Otherwise sending weapons for ukraine to fight russia, is like supporting your friend with a knife to a gun fight.

Unless it's important enought that the west is willing to fight alongside ukraine, this will just lead to more loss of life and end up russia winning.

[moistly]

> The sane thing is the diplomatic route and give putin enought to stop the war.

Give a Mouse a Cookie…

https://w3.ric.edu/sherlockcenter/dsi/mousecookie.pdf

[TrapLord_Rhodo]

"every former Soviet occupied country fled "

This is not really how history worked. It was NATO, the EU and the US deciding where the cards fell, who was placed in power and where the dividing lines were.

[Wiseacre]

Can you explain this cancellation of everything Russian? The Russian restaurant near me is being embraced by the local community. Most people here feel bad for the Ukrainian and Russian people and only have hatred for Putin. Was a throwaway necessary for this comment?

[throwaway_9357]

I spent a lot of time in an EU country and still have a lot of people I met on Instagram. These are normal people and a lot of them non stop post Russian hate now. Some Russian culture events got cancelled by the venue. I realize I may be exaggerating but it has just gotten to me

[moistly]

I think you mistake hatred of a cruel mafioso government and the dysfunctional structures that enable it to continue unimpeded, with the Russian people. Putin, the oligarchs, and the sociopathic bullies that enforce the regime are rightfully hated by all moral people. The generationally abused citizenry that have suffered so much for so long are not hated: the world wishes better for them.

[throwaway_9357]

Throwaway was necessary because a close friend of mine reads this forum daily and knows my username. We are avoiding this topic at all cost

[ethanbond]

A “puppet government” voted into power with 70%+ of the popular vote is just called “a government that disagrees with me.”

[TrapLord_Rhodo]

not all voting is created equal.

There are plenty of examples of puppet governments with much higher ratings than 70%.

In reality, alot of governments are puppets to some higher power in this globalist economy we've found ourselves in.

[ethanbond]

Voting is not an approval rating. In a democracy, leaders don’t just validate their decisions with “ratings,” they actually derive their mandate from the voting results. Zelensky was voted into power with overwhelming public support on a platform of NATO alignment. There were several Russian-aligned candidates who also had a fair shot at earning a mandate from the public. They failed. Zelensky won (and not by a little bit).

There’s not even a little bit of surprise in this state of the world, either. Russia is ruled by thugs and has been for a long time. It’s not surprising at all that when a country goes democratic, they tend to align with NATO.

[nowherebeen]

I respect your opinion and I am not Russian, so I don't have skin in the game. But, I wonder if you realize your comment paints yourself as the ultimate victim.

There is also a strong sense of victim blaming for Ukraine's defensive action. It's equivalent of an abusive boyfriend beating her girlfriend up and then blaming her for defending herself.

[NicoJuicy]

I don't know what you're talking about.

1) NATO never attacked Russia. Russia is constantly testing war-responses ( flyovers/bypasses, internet cables, army ships, ...). That's also the reason why Sweden ( not NATO) has re-introduced military duty for adults.

2) Ukraine never attacked Russia. They defended their property when Russia invaded with gray zone terrorist. They did close off the water supply.

3) You are being diluted. In Crimea their was a huge amount of natural gas found and that is why Russia invaded. Guess what the first place was that they occupied...

In return, Ukraine cut off water supply to their occupied parts and the ground got dry. Current habitants of Crimea say it became a military state and are not happy about it, in contrary to the first years of occupation ( when the bridge between Russia and Crimea wasn't finished yet, Russians promised a lot about how it would improve. It didn't).

4) Zelensky being a puppet or stupid is pure Russian propaganda since Russia lost their governement because of Ukraine pro-democracy protests. Yes, he improved relations with the West, since there was a danger from Russia. This danger became reality now.

Russia never thaught that the family bounds would have been broken off this quickly.

Zelensky is everything Putin wants to be, a leader without the need of obvious propaganda.

While Putin is too scared of COVID ( not even a joke).

Tbh. Zelensky his actions are everything what one could ever want in a leader. I'm quite impressed how he is handing this horror.

5) You are not blaming Russia, you are trying to find an excuse to put it on NATO/ Ukraine.

Here are the facts, outside of the false whataboutism:

- NATO didn't invade Russia

- Ukraine didn't invade Russia

- Ukraine didn't suddenly create nuclear weapons because of NATO

- NATO didn't threaten with nukes

- Ukraine didn't threaten with nukes

- Ukraine is defending themselves from an invasion/war

But:

- Putin invaded Crimea - 'gray zone warfare'

- Putin invaded Ukraine - 'special military op'

- Belarus now has nuclear weapons because of Russia

- Russia and Belarus threaten with nukes

- Russia started the war

---

The end result already has changed a lot of Russian narrative and had the opposite intended effect:

- Russian army is a joke, the advanced tech was mostly sold to get money and they barely have modern equipment for themselves. Quantity doesn't replace quality.

- the propaganda because they could move equipment because of trains, actually seems to be their biggest limitation.

- instead of reliable using their propaganda machine build over the decades, it has been cut off almost immediately

- everyone by now knows how scared Putin is of COVID, even while vaccines exist. They called dibs to soon. Putin his image of tough guy is scattered.

- they united Europe instead of dividing it

- more countries want to join NATO. Russia even did some flyovers with Finland, speeding up the process

- they trained Ukrainians instead of weakening them since 2014

- the cyber talent in Russia ( supposed to be up notch) had been hacked multiple times by anonymous. We should be grateful that they pentested our systems with limited side-effects for free. Their advanced malware was stopped thanks to Microsoft within 3 hours. I think that's a record.

- they are becoming totally dependent on China, instead of acting like a world player.

- they are hastening the process in Europe to become less dependent on gas. While Europe actually bought more from Russia in the past.

But yeah, we'll pay higher prices for gas, oil and weat. It will be an expensive operation/consequence.

But those that substained from voting against Russia will pay more too.

I can live with that. The will has never been greater.