[scrollaway]

Yes, it is. Russia wants to squash Ukraine out of existence. He’s going out of his way to get rid of the Ukrainian language and culture.

For him, Ukraine is a part of Russia, and its independence and own culture is a threat to Russia.

What is your argument that this isn’t genocidal, by definition?

[CheezeIt]

By your own claims, and the definition of genocide.

[scrollaway]

> the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

How does this not describe what’s happening? Could you not be obtuse, please, and either argue your point in more depth or say you’re wrong?

[iisaev]

Disclaimer: I am Russian, so you could count all of this as a russian propaganda.

We don't want to kill a large number of people at all. In the first days of war, our army even had an order to somehow skip the fights with regular army and fight only so-called "volunteer batallions" - these are real, patented, nazis (google "azov battalion nazis" and you could find a lot of interesting photos). Of course, they failed and right now it is a bloody mess. But look at the videos captured cities - our troops didn't event drop the ukrainian flag and there are demonstrations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JIaJTSWoqQ

Do you really think that this city looks like the city after the genocide? Come on.

What we really want is no NATO bases everywhere near our border and now looks like the only way (idk, maybe there were others, but Putin decided so) to do it is to destroy ukrainian state completely (the state, not the people).

[scrollaway]

I know regular Russians don't want to kill their Ukrainian brothers. Come on. Most people in Europe know that (and the people blaming Russians directly are the same racist fucks picking fights with any random brown-skinned dude for "being al'qaeda").

But yes, some of what you're saying is indeed propaganda. This war is unjustified and unjustifiable. I would invite you to watch this video by a Belarusian lieutenant colonel, it's relevant: https://twitter.com/kopiganja/status/1498182268523016195

Now, I want to be clear: That Russian soldiers are disobeying, failing or retreating does not mean this is not a genocidal war. The objective is genocidal, but the objective is stupid enough that the smarter Russian soldiers aren't following it.

> What we really want is no NATO bases everywhere near our border and now looks like the only way (idk, maybe there were others, but Putin decided so) to do it is to destroy ukrainian state completely (the state, not the people).

Okay, well, that's very different from "wanting to eliminate nazis", isn't it? And yes, I know Putin doesn't want NATO on russian borders, but like you said, "maybe there were other [ways]", and choosing the bloodiest one is fucking psychopathic.

Furthermore, I want to remind you that to "destroy the Ukrainian state completely" is still genocidal when Ukrainians DONT WANT YOU TO DO THAT and are rightfully taking up arms to defend themselves.

It is their right to defend themselves from a bully. And if the bully insists, you can't then say "oh well guess I'll have to kill everybody who doesn't want me to absorb their entire culture and identity" without being called genocidal.

Finally, please take a look beyond your own sources when looking at war footage. Here's example drone footage of destroyed civilian structures in Kyiv. https://twitter.com/avalaina/status/1499467690842415109

[iisaev]

> I would invite you to watch this video by a Belarusian lieutenant colonel, it's relevant: https://twitter.com/kopiganja/status/1498182268523016195

Watched the video. Sorry, I don't think this is relevant - this is obvious propaganda from the other side of war. I found this man's instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CSSmN0uo0ir/. Looks like he has business in Poland, so I think he's kinda biased - if Belarus will be under sanctions, he may have problems. Also, the video quality is spectacular, it is really made by a professional, not just "his message to soldiers".

> the objective is stupid enough that the smarter Russian soldiers aren't following it

this is exactly what Nazis printed on leaflets and dropped from the planes during the WW2. see https://www.rbth.com/history/327798-nazi-propaganda-soviet-u... It is fun that both Zelensky and Putin are comparing each others with Hitler.

Jokes aside, the objective is not stupid, the explanation is. But I think explaining the objective as a "denazification" is not more stupid than explaining similar objective as "establishing a democracy". This is what politicians do.

>I want to remind you that to "destroy the Ukrainian state completely" is still genocidal when Ukrainians DONT WANT YOU TO DO THAT and are rightfully taking up arms to defend themselves. >It is their right to defend themselves from a bully. And if the bully insists, you can't then say "oh well guess I'll have to kill everybody who doesn't want me to absorb their entire culture and identity" without being called genocidal.

I understand what you're saying and you're right in a way. But you must understand too: the opposite was done by Ukrainian government to the people of Donbass for eight years, even though western media completely ignored it. Google "defence of donetsk airport" and something related. And even though there were declaration of piece (so called Minsk agreements), ukrainian army continued the war calling it "anti-terrorist operation". Don't you see the similarity of the situation? The difference is that ukrainians bombed their own people and russians are bombing ukrainians, but I don't see how's that better.

I personally know a couple of people from Donbass who left their homes and moved to Russia to escape this war. And believe me, they're not stupid and they understand who's guilty in it.

>Finally, please take a look beyond your own sources when looking at war footage. Here's example drone footage of destroyed civilian structures in Kyiv.

I sure do. I don't believe in "precise strikes" nonsense told by our officials - right now it is a bloody mess for sure. But you must understand too: a lot of defensive strikes made by Azov and AFU are made from civilian structures. That's what army do - because they expect that enemy will not fight back and if it does - they just will have one more "shocking" video for the media. This is war shit.

>who doesn't want me to absorb their entire culture and identity

This is also not the objective at all. We don't want to absorb the culture - there are lot of different cultures in Russia. The chechens, fighting by our side in this war is far more different from russians than ukrainians, believe me. We want different government to Ukraine, the government that will agree to admit Crimea as a Russia and DPR and LPR states and not join NATO neither de jure nor de facto. I hope that this is the real objective of Putin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxL5E7-Nejc

[trhway]

you again dumped a pile of steaming Russian propaganda in order to rationalize genocide. It is somehow got lost on the Russians in Russia that genocide can't be rationalized. If history is any guide, such loss (or at least suppression) of humanity will lead to catastrophic consequences to Russia and its people.

>ukrainian army continued the war calling it "anti-terrorist operation". Don't you see the similarity of the situation?

absolutely not. The similarity would be if Ukraine moved tanks on Moscow and bombed the sh^t out of Russia. They didn't even though their side also got shelled by the separatists.

> But you must understand too: a lot of defensive strikes made by Azov and AFU are made from civilian structures.

yea. Defenders of Stalingrad were guilty of the destruction of Stalingrad. That is Nazi logic. And it isn't the only time your post displayed it (which is naturally because Russian propaganda what you repeat is mostly nazism these days). Like this too :

>We want different government to Ukraine, the government that will agree to admit Crimea as a Russia and DPR and LPR states and not join NATO neither de jure nor de facto.

Just like Nazi wanted in their days - the USSR government without Bolsheviks and Jews which would suit more the vision of Great Germany the same way like Putin today wants to change Ukraine for his vision of Great Russia. Details change while the core nature of nazism stays the same.

>We don't want to absorb the culture

just drive millions of people out of their land, and the rest either killed for resistance or must accept the Russian Order as Putin declared. Just like Nazi planned for Slavic people in USSR.

[trhway]

>Disclaimer: I am Russian, so you could count all of this as a russian propaganda.

no need for disclaimer. The content of your post is a well familiar Russian propaganda. I'm Russian myself and watch it enough to know and understand.

>We don't want to kill a large number of people at all.

it just magically happens. You declared war and moved 200K people on armor invading the country, bombed the sh^t out of the country and all that without wanting to kill a large number people! You just wanted to kill a small number of people. That is borderline psychopathy.

>fight only so-called "volunteer batallions" - these are real, patented, nazis

before fighting nazis in other countries Russia should have taken care about its own nazism - on top of the already pretty much totalitarian regime Putin in his Ukrainian war speech openly declares basic cornerstones of nazism - like Lebensraum, Volksgemeinschaft, Blut and Boden and Dolchstoßlegende - as the foundations of his Ukrainian policy. And the Russians cheer Putin on that like Germans did Hitler in 1939.

No wonder that, like back then in 1936 in Spain, people from all over the world are coming to Ukraine to fight fascism, this time the Russian fascism.

>Do you really think that this city looks like the city after the genocide?

looks like a genocide to me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE9WKybzkpY . Russia conducts a campaign of indiscriminate artillery and air bombing of Ukrainian cities. For the artillery bombing of the Ukrainian cities Russia uses unguided Grad with classic and unguided Smerch with cluster munition. For air bombing it uses unguided bombs like FAB-250 (250kg/500lbs) and FAB-500 (500kg/1000lb) resulting in those tremendous destructions. Some of these bombs were found unexploded, and 2 days ago Ukraine shot down Su-34 when the plane was bombing Chernigov and captured the pilot who happened to be that Russian pilot infamous for his civilian bombing raids back then in Aleppo and who got celebrated by Putin and Assad for that.

You of course is a good Russian boy regularly taking his daily dose of Russian propaganda. Like most of Russians you probably believe in the million times repeated to you by Russian propaganda "we only do high-precision strikes on military targets, and we never target civilian objects". The Russian "propagandons" (for non-Russian speakers - "propagandon" is combination of "propagandist" and Russian offensive word for "condom") are so sure that you eat their propaganda unquestionably that they don't even care to make any half-decent product. For example Russian official news yesterday on the channel 1 - the story where the reporter reports from an airfield on an airstrike conducted in Ukraine (https://rutube.ru/video/4b400cbcfbbd6c1b730b5e80138fe598/ starting timestamp 24:40 ). The plane takes off, supposedly performs "airstrike on a military target using air-to-ground missile" - they show computer game missile launch screen capture as the purported missile launch at 25:05 - and lands empty. So far so great.

Now lets looks at the plane on take-off at timestamp 24:56 - the plane is loaded only with unguided bombs FAB-250. No high-precision, no air-to-ground missile that those propagandons were talking about. They again show a plane similarly loaded only with unguided bombs at 25:19, and show unguided bombs at 25:50 which are supposedly being loaded on the plane which just returned empty. So much for the high precision what Russians are made to enthusiastically believe their country is using in Ukraine. As Russia doesn't have much Su-34, and as this unit does the unguided bombing, it actually seems to be the unit which is bombing Chernigov (and they have 3 planes while the unit would normally be 4, ie. one is lost as mentioned above)

>What we really want is no NATO bases everywhere near our border and now looks like the only way (idk, maybe there were others, but Putin decided so) to do it is to destroy ukrainian state completely (the state, not the people).

wonderful expression of the God-like position of the "Great Russian chauvinism" - we decided to destroy your state. Ok, lets suppose for the minute that it is a real purpose of this war (while dismissing contradicting evidence like the killed civilians, destruction in the cities and millions of displace). Then i guess it would be completely reasonable that upon winning of this war the Ukrainians would completely destroy the Russian state (not the people) in order to provide for the future safety of Ukraine, don't you think so?

By the way, NATO is an old news, you seems to failed to mention the nuclear and chemical weapons Zelensky was supposedly making to attack Russia. Or may be even you understand how stupid it sounds? Anyway, it works miracle for Russian internal propaganda, though even they seems to be hesitant to bring it up externally - just like you.

[CheezeIt]

So you think, what, any forcible annexation of a country is genocide because it has fighting? That’s not the definition. They aren’t exterminating Ukrainians, defined ethnically or nationally.

[scrollaway]

You are not familiar with Putin's rhetoric at all then.

He wants to remove Ukraine as a country, a nation, a people and a separate identity from "Russia" and "Russian".

Just a couple introductory links, and this is the soft stuff, it goes well beyond that:

- https://www.inquirer.com/news/nation-world/putin-threatens-w...

- https://time.com/6150046/ukraine-statehood-russia-history-pu...

- https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/ukraine-history-fact-ch...

My east-ukrainian girlfriend almost exclusively spoke Russian. Up until now. She and her friends have been switching to Ukrainian because they feel their entire identity and culture is being threatened. And she's from the part of Ukraine that identifies the most with Russia.