[yellowcake0]

I didn't say the US started it, my point is both countries made poor decisions which led to this outcome, not just Russia.

So instead of trying to assign blame, lets try to resolve this situation to all parties' benefit, rather than lionizing one side, and demonizing the other. Which ultimately means taking Russia's security concerns and legitimate grievances seriously, because if this gets out of hand, then it will be to the whole world's sorrow.

[dkersten]

We can only deal with what we have in front of us right now. Right now, Russia is 1) committing war crimes in Ukraine and 2) threatening the world with nuclear war if he doesn't get what he wants. So of course we are talking about the situation at hand. When the imminent threat is over, by all means, we can criticize everyone else who is or has committed evil too, including the US and China for their crimes against civilians.

But right now, the crisis at hand is that Russia has invaded Ukraine and Putin has lied again and again. How can we take Russia's grievances seriously when Putin has been acting on bad faith all along.

[yellowcake0]

You can take Russia's grievances on their own merit, Putin's behavior notwithstanding.

The crisis at hand is that we have, along with our counterparties in Russia and the EU, created a region of instability along the outer Soviet arc that has existed since its formal collapse in 1991. This war in Ukraine is just the latest manifestation of this.

I personally would like my government to try and negotiate with Putin, and to make an honest effort to address his concerns, in an attempt to put an end to hostilities. How many more times do we have in us, to creep along the edge of nuclear war, are you all so eager for the grave? Clearly you feel differently, and I guess that's where we will have to disagree.

[dkersten]

No legitimate grievances warrant invading another country. And even if you disagree, definitely no legitimate grievances warrant targeting civilians. That’s terrorism, plain and simple. Putin is a terrorist.

Putins acts have demonstrated that Ukraine’s desires to join the EU and NATO are absolutely warranted, to protect themselves from exactly this.

Additionally, Putin has threatened anyone that gets in his way from getting what he wants with nuclear war. We can debate about whether it’s an idle threat or not but if it’s true, then that and his attack on civilians shows that he has no regard for human life, that he would rather face his own peoples annihilation if it means he can also punish those who stand in his way. Someone making such threats, and who had a clear history of lying, cannot be trusted. What does listening to him achieve if nothing he says can be trusted? Nothing he agrees can be trusted, so what agreement can possibly be made?

The invasion of Ukraine was premeditated, he was planning it for many many months based on the movement of troops and equipment and the leaked reports I heard about. This wasn’t a reaction to a breakdown in diplomacy, this was a long planned invasion.

I’m not saying we should invade Russia back and I’m not saying we shouldn’t take great care when dealing with the situation. I am saying that Putin cannot be trusted and I fear diplomacy doesn’t work against someone whose promises cannot be trusted and someone who has shown to have great ambitions yet also a callous disregard for human life. I also don’t think we can reasonably assume that he won’t use nuclear weapons when his attack on Ukraine is becoming increasingly brutal as he’s getting more desperate.

So what are we to do? Just give him what he wants? Show him and the rest of the world that brutality and threatening nuclear war gets you whatever you ask for?

[nec4b]

I have a proposal for you. Russia gets out of Ukraine and instead is allowed to control your country. If that would appease Putin, would you support it?