[hagy]

Yes, it is unfortunate that ordinary Russian citizens are being harmed by the sanctions. But that is unavoidable and an acceptable side effect of weakening Putin’s war machine. We need to eliminate his ability to wage an inhuman war of aggression and asphyxiating the Russian economy that power’s his war machine is our best available option.

War, including economic war, commonly involves massive harm to civilians. That includes civilians who oppose the war and are powerless to stop it. If the western powers and their allies could surgically snuff out Putin’s war machine without harm to innocent Russians then they would. Unfortunately that option is not available. So we accept that innocent Russians will suffer as we drain the financial blood from Putin’s war machine.

[lowkey]

I disagree. The suffering of Russian people is very avoidable. For example if the US and Germany had the political and economic will to stop buying oil from Russia and thereby directly funding Putin’s war.

Instead they chose broad indiscriminate sanctions that, while politically convenient are absolutely devastating to everyday Russian plebs. The Ruble has collapsed leading to hyperinflation on everyday goods the people need to survive.

Many innocent Russians will die directly because of the actions of the west. Their blood will be on our hands.

[ChuckNorris89]

>Many innocent Russians will die directly because of the actions of the west.

They will die because of the actions of their own government.

[lowkey]

They will die because western governments find it politically more convenient to apply broad indiscriminate sanctions against all citizens of the country instead of cutting off funding from the head of the snake by NOT buying Russian oil & gas.

The only crime committed by regular Russians is being born inside an authoritarian regime that pretended to be a democracy for a time. The genie is out of the bottle and Russians know that protesting their government could land them in the Gulag or worse.

Stop playing with people’s lives! Yo have obviously never lived under an authoritarian government. People rising up in a new Arab Spring may sound romantic but it is more likely to end up in many more deaths than overthrowing this givernment.

Elsewhere I advocated for the west banning the purchase of oil along with subsidizing energy prices for affected populations.

You repeatedly ignore my proposal or even explain what is wrong with the idea of de-funding the Russian war machine by no longer giving the Russian government millions of dollars/Euros.

Why won’t you address my core point instead of deflecting and blaming an entire nation’s citizens?

[bigfudge]

I don’t see how stopping buying oil would be preferable from the perspective of a Russian citizen. Both will be economically ruinous to the Russian states, eventually. One hits innocent European citizens too, so it seems obvious which to choose.

[lowkey]

It is pretty simple really, consider the 2 options:

1) Stop buying oil & gas from oligarchs and Russian elites.

The oils stays in Russia and Russians stay warm in winter.

Putin loses billions in foreign currency which he was using to wage war in Ukraine - crippling his war machine virtually overnight.

The elites and government lose 30% of their GDP and this was money that never trickled down to the plebs. It hurts the oligarchs and givernment who receive the revenue and taxes directly.

2) Broad economic sanctions mean everyday Russians can no longer buy food, medicine, clothing, batteries, electronics, shoes, or anything else from abroad.

It hurts the middle-class and working class more than elites.

Did you know for example that the sanctions against Russia include a carve-out protecting Italy’s ability to sell ultra high-end luxury and designer goods?

Do you still think this is about targeting Russian elites?

[bigfudge]

I thought the Italian luxury stuff had actually gone now. Prada etc are withdrawing.

At this point I don’t blame anyone for sanctioning first then Reviewing later. What is happening in Ukraine is obscene. If there is the smallest possibility that any sanction makes any Russian more likely to protest or question putin it’s worth a go. We can check again in 6 months and see if all are still needed ir likely to be effective.