[optimalonpaper]

No one thinks that a regular Ivan from some russian city (on his own) is responsible for the war and should suffer. And I see how you could (and probably should, at some level) feel sorry for russians fleeing the country.

But this is the only way to tell them that they -- collective Ivans, Russian society as a whole -- should stand up and act: they should articulate their content, they should protest against putin's policy, and they should stop the war (an alternative would be to accept Ukraine to NATO and finish this war is a day, but that won't happen).

While they're suffering economically, the suffering of Ukrainians is just on another level -- it's not about restrictions (e.g. no ikea or facebook or apple products) or money (inflation), it's about flattened cities and destroyed lives.

I woke up as I heard bombs falling on my city, and I definitely haven't felt any sympathy for russians since then.

If they feel they don't support their country's aggression towards Ukraine, they should go protest and stop it -- even at risk of being fined or imprisoned. Otherwise they should just embrace all sanctions and become North Korea imho.

[axg11]

I see both sides to this. Yes, Russians should protest against the horrible actions of their government.

On the other hand, if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors?

NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people. I don’t disagree with the sanctions but we also shouldn’t pretend that it is a just or fair course of action. Sanctions are the best tool that we have, out of a selection of poor tools.

[JamesBarney]

All the polls in Russia show more than half the population supports the special military operations in Russia.

So it's way more than a few hundred. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who are literally invading Ukraine right now.

[dragonwriter]

> All the polls in Russia show more than half the population supports the special military operations in Russia.

When dissent, both personal and published, is criminalized, that less than half of people will tell a stranger promising anonymity and purporting to represent a media organization that they dissent doesn't mean anything like that less than half of people actually dissent.

Opinion polling can be problematic in a liberal democracy with a strong tradition of freedom of political opinion and expression, but in regimes that aren't it is beyond problematic.

[ridiculous_leke]

Not sure how legit the polls are. However, most of the people will support security and safety over freedom. Supporting war seems to be the only safe of living under Putin's regime.

[adventured]

> NATO/the West is choosing to worsen the lives of 144 million Russian citizens due to the actions of ~several hundred people.

That's the single biggest falsehood of this whole thing propaganda wise: that the Russian people aren't responsible for what's going on.

The Russian people are responsbile for their culture, which keeps producing and promoting authoritarianism, decade after decade, generation after generation, century after century.

Oh those poor Russian people, applauding Putin when times were good, cheering the increase in Russian might, cheering the annexation of Crimea, rah rah rah. Oh no, Putin has gone into Ukraine, who could have seen it coming!?! It's all bullshit, they cheered him on. Putin's popularity went way up with the annexation of Crimea, so he's doing it again on a greater level, he's repeating what worked last time with the Russian people - they love conquest and the return of glory for the Russian empire. These are important beliefs of the Russian culture and Putin is very aware of that. Putin fed them endless images of strength, all those ridiculous photos of him pretending to be strong doing a thing, it was all propaganda for his people (now ask yourself why it worked, why that propaganda; because Putin understands very well the Russian culture and what to feed it).

They are responsible.

[ugjka]

Would you say in the same vein that North Koreans are responsible for the dictatorship they are living in?

[optimalonpaper]

To the same degree that russians are responsible for the political regime they live under -- it's the result of their inactivity and tolerance of the horrific things that are happening right now, no?

Of course if you're in North Korea, it's much much harder (if possible at all) to do anything. But unless russians wake up soon, they're heading in the same direction as North Korea for sure.

So they should act before they become North Korea, act whilst they can

[tsol]

And western people are responsible for a culture that colonizes half the world. Why do you always escape punishment?

[mancerayder]

ColonizeD half the world.

There've been empires for many thousands of years, and for a number of decades now (we can't say a century yet), there haven't really been any. There've been foreign interventions and neo-colonialist activities and exploitation, but on the grand scale, and relative to all of the past, you have to be honest and admit the worst is over. There's a complete culture shift in countries like Britain and France which, by the way, have a large number of immigrants, and specifically from their ex-colonies. These folks vote, and without a large amount of propaganda, people don't readily want to bomb other countries.

Point is, there is a lot less rampant hawkish nationalism than there was in the middle of the 20th century, where the mores were very different as was the foreign policy. We're not perfect, but we've evolved.

[tsol]

>There've been empires for many thousands of years, and for a number of decades now (we can't say a century yet), there haven't really been any. There've been foreign interventions and neo-colonialist activities and exploitation, but on the grand scale, and relative to all of the past, you have to be honest and admit the worst is over.

And who was the most recent to colonize? It's good that it isn't still happening, it really is, but the west still did that until they sufficiently benefited and then gave it up and said "it's okay no one is colonizing anymore! This is a new peaceful Era". No reparations just deciding to forget about it all. So again, what should be taken from western citizens until they are willing to fix their culture into one that makes right on the wrongs they've done?

[mancerayder]

Punishment, reparations are tricky since you're not punishing the people who are still alive. You might be punishing or asking for monetary reparations from their ancestors, arguing they are beneficiaries, but the reality is you'll also be punishing immigrants, and people who look like the colonialists but have nothing to do with it.

The history of the world is a history of the 1 percent and the 99 percent. Just reading some Charles Dickens will show you how awful life was for the lower classes in London, which were numerous. Child labor, extreme poverty, debtors' prisons. Torture for punishment. The history of Europe is also a history of war, serfdom and even slavery, long before we enter the rest of the world.

[dzikimarian]

First of all - most of the countries recognized their mistakes and got rid of governments pushing for such things.

Secondly - many ghosts of the past are still torment western countries (e.g. last year BLM protests), and in general they are at least recognized as a problem, by general population, not that stubbornly deflected and "whatabouted" as we can observe now in Russia.

BTW I'm not westerner. I'm living far closer to the Russia, than I would prefer to - because honestly whole world moved ahead, and in general got better (admittedly very inconsistently), and Russia is well... Russia - same for as long as I know.

[tsol]

>First of all - most of the countries recognized their mistakes and got rid of governments pushing for such things.

After benefiting from stealing their resources, eventually colonization ended in no small part due to huge amounts of resistance from the colonies(ex Ghandi). I don't think that's exactly deserving of a humanitarian prize. Not only are there are reparations for those who were used, there were even recent military incursions in the Middle East

>Secondly - many ghosts of the past are still torment western countries (e.g. last year BLM protests), and in general they are at least recognized as a problem, by general population, not that stubbornly deflected and "whatabouted" as we can observe now in Russia.

Cold comfort. That isn't fixing the problem that's just saying "yeah well we feel bad and have problems due to the abuse we inflicted on others". No surprise, but that doesn't help any of the populations that were set back and marginalized by colonization

[dzikimarian]

>After benefiting from stealing their resources

I fail to see what point you're trying to make. You're saying, that in your opinion, other countries were more agressive in the past than Russia (which isn't true - I still see evidences on streets of my country), therefore Russia has unused quota of assholery, and should be allowed to murder Ukrainians whithout being criticized?

> That isn't fixing the problem that's just saying "yeah well we feel bad and have problems due to the abuse we inflicted on others".

Sadly in many cases yes, but also in many cases there were actual govermental or non-govermental help for regions violated in the past. This is not the case in Russia - Russia ended it's invasions only after being forced out and didn't ever even addmited, that it was doing something wrong. Quite the opposite - it tends to suggest it was doing something good like for e.g. in this case: https://twitter.com/radeksikorski/status/1480536745112444936 - have you ever seen such comment from any British official regarding India?

[optimalonpaper]

> if you’re an average Russian with few/no international ties, would you really risk protesting against a government with a demonstrated track record of murdering dissidents and imprisoning protestors?

I think one has to decide what's important for them -- if I think that my participation in collective action (protest) could somehow prevent or stop killing of other people, then I think I would try at least (and if I knew there were other people who I can rely on, who share the same feelings that I have). In this case, if nothing changes, at least I know I did all I could, but if it works (in best case scenario), then the war is over. Worth risking right?

This is how the Revolution of Dignity happened in Ukraine: you just knew you had to act -- and act as a group not as an individual -- when the president you elected have failed your nation (and before running away he also proposed fines and imprisonment for those who took part in protests, so there were risks obviously).

> I don’t disagree with the sanctions but we also shouldn’t pretend that it is a just or fair course of action. Sanctions are the best tool that we have, out of a selection of poor tools.

Completely agree

[opportune]

Yeah, it’s unreasonable to expect everybody in a corrupt regime to sacrifice their life to stop it. At least Russia is not stopping them from leaving.

These Russians leaving their country is still a “vote with your feet” type of play. It hurts the regime of Russia to have professionals leave, especially since the people who leave are more likely to be more skilled. It’s better than doing nothing at all.

[tyrfing]

Putin has popular support, and there's no evidence that Russians are against the war. This sort of argument is about as intellectually dishonest as saying Trump didn't represent the US. Factually, he did. A small minority fleeing the country isn't evidence that everyone opposes the country's leadership, and most of the anecdotes from Russians are about avoiding personal involvement - the fear is of being drafted into the war.

edit: I know this is an unpopular point, but there is just zero basis for saying that Putin isn't supported by his country. He absolutely is, which makes the situation much more complicated.

[optimalonpaper]

This might be true (as horrible as it sounds - and many people in Ukraine think exactly this), but I still hope that a vocal minority acting together could start something new - and then we could see another, better Russia (Russia that returns Crimea, Donbass, and don't start new wars).

[armchairhacker]

Acting in Russia puts you in a very dangerous situation. Already protestors are being jailed, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the military starts firing at or bombing or gassing protestors. Someone who starts war like this doesn’t respect civilian life, Ukrainian or Russian.

Would you, personally, put your life at risk just to be one more protestor?

I agree that Russians should stand up to Putin, but honestly it’s a lot easier and likely more effective to do this outside of Russia.

And also, targeting and blaming Russians as a whole is exactly not what we need. The difference is a war against Russia vs a war against Putin and the high-level officials. Ordinary Russians didn’t cause this and are victims similar to the Ukrainians. Even if they don’t have it as bad, they’re suffering greatly.

[pilate]

What life are they trying to preserve? Russia will be living in the Stone Age for the next several decades if this doesn’t end soon.

[optimalonpaper]

> Would you, personally, put your life at risk just to be one more protestor?

I could share you a video of unarmed Ukrainians protesting against russian invasion today in Kherson in front of russian tanks.

If I felt I was responsible for the country I live in, for the president I elected (and who decided to invade another country without any reason), I would put my life at 'risk' (realistically, would be fined or detained for a few days, not killed or jailed). And besides, the more people participate, the less risks are involved. So really it's up to them.

> honestly it’s a lot easier and likely more effective to do this outside of Russia

but you all see the enormous and unprecedented support that the whole world give to Ukraine, you see all of these gathering in every major city of every major Western country -- and yet it doesn't effect putin sadly. So easier - yes, but more effective - I doubt it...

[diordiderot]

What are they gonna do? Arrest everyone. Eventually the enforcers will get tired of it too

[bitcharmer]

Judging by the number of Russians taking the easy way out by just fleeing or complaining about the evil west closing their Ikea stores this nation at the moment has zero capacity to take responsibility for their own government.

I'm afraid it has to get much worse before it gets better. They still don't understand that as much as the government is responsible for its people, the people are also responsible for their government.

Putin didn't magically appear on the political scene with all the power he has now. Russians allowed Putin to happen; now they refuse to take responsibility.

[vlaaad]

Why would I take responsibility for something I have zero influence over?

He did just appear when Yeltsin said that he's leaving. He blatantly fakes elections: 146% support is a very telling result of one of these elections. It is a meme in Russia because when you can't do anything about it you can only laugh or cry.

His 20 years on the throne are a constant stream of murders, poisoning and jailing of people who try to do something about it, and their friends, and their families.

I'm just a normal person, I want to live a normal live with my wife and kids, I didn't choose any of that. Why do I have to risk going to jail for 15 years for mentioning that war is war, only because I was born on the wrong side of the border?

[awb]

Large scale military invasions don’t happen because of 1 person’s will. They happen as a chain of events that offer direct or indirect support that makes it possible. We are all in that chain. From the leader, to their government, to their funding sources, to the citizens.

Do you not speak up? Do you pay taxes? Do you support state run businesses? Do you go along with the system as it violently oppressed others and assassinated dissidents? We all have some responsibility to bear.

I understand you want a normal, peaceful life, but that is not what the world has chosen for you.

You can’t be neutral on a moving train.

The question is how badly do you want things to change? What are you willing to do to break your part in the chain?

If the answer is nothing, then you’re exactly the kind of citizen a dictator wants. One that will acquiesce as things get worse and worse, while still keeping the trains running on time and willing to look the other way.

[pilate]

Your prospects of a “normal life” are over. Whether you decide to do anything to improve it now is up to you.

[diordiderot]

>I want to live a normal live with my wife and kids

That's what Ukrainians want and unfortunately that's not an option for them, and now it isn't one for you either. Putin has taken that away from you.

The faster Russians realize that their fate is in their own hands the better. It's a collective action problem, Putin can't arrest everyone.

You won't live a normal life until he's gone so the question is, how do you make that happen sooner?

Easy way: General strike, 5% of people quit working, government will change. It will require personal sacrifice, and be a thankless task. No justified violence in response.

It's unlikely people care enough to make that sacrifice, therefore, sanctions.

Sanctions exist to make the cost of doing nothing more than the cost of taking action.

Medium way: Help accelerate discontent through low stakes capital sabotage. Pop tires, cut wires, set fires(didn't mean for these to all rhyme) break anything you can get away with.

Hard way: let Russia build up national industry and suffer 3rd world standards of living through your childrens entire childhood until Putin dies, wait as Russia is engulfed in a bloody internal power struggle and hope the good guys win

[optimalonpaper]

> I'm just a normal person, I want to live a normal live with my wife and kids, I didn't choose any of that.

That's what 2000+ civilians who died since 24th of February felt and wanted. They didn't choose to die. But they died. And more will follow if you don't start acting (not you but you as a society, you as a group of normal people who want a normal life). And so this is why you have to risk

[bitcharmer]

> Why would I take responsibility for something I have zero influence over?

Well, nothing will ever change in Russia even post-Putin with that mindset. And Russia's neighbors will pay the price of this passive attitude.

Other European nations are definitely showing more responsibility. This is just disappointing.

[BbzzbB]

Easy for us in the West to show responsibility when it's not our and our families' lives that are on the line. Our non-willingness (if political decisions can be considered collective, as so many here imply for Russia) to die is made obvious by the fact no one nation dares put a boot on the ground while Ukraine gets leveled.

[diordiderot]

Or maybe it's the certainty of global nuclear annihilation and the end of humanity as we know it

But you're probably right, the selfish cowards things makes sense. I guess that's why we haven't gone to war since 1945... Oh wait

[BbzzbB]

FWIW I'm not arguing we should, I just find it hypocritical to say Europeans (which I'll extrapolate to the rest of us in the West) are taking responsibility as opposed to Russians when we are doing so from the comfort of our intact living rooms.

[ip26]

It may actually be worse for Ukraine if NATO and Russia were to face off there. I’m no authority, but a showdown might be even more destructive.

[TravelPiglet]

Well you can move abroad

[alm1]

would you say the same thing if Russian citizens were instead from North Korea? The "democratic" Russian Federation is 31 years old (20 of which were under Putin). There has been 0 full generations who saw a functioning or even a fictional democratic process in action.