[remram]

This just seems completely backwards. We lament every time a country in crisis/civil war blocks Internet for its citizens: Sudan, Kazakhstan, Burkina Faso, Yemen, ... and then we cut Russia from the Internet on our side [1]

If the point of sanctions is to get the local population to rise and make it difficult for the government to keep its course, why cut out their access to independent news that would let them know what to protest? That will leave them with only state-controlled news. And now they can't submit that to Reddit to discuss it?

I get that Reddit don't want to be left out of the PR bandwagon, and as a link aggregator all they can do is block links. But this doesn't feel like helping.

[1]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/internet-service-provider-coge...

[ehsankia]

Being blocked from sharing Russian-owned content is absolutely nothing like being cut off from the internet or information. At best it's limiting the spread of Russian-owned content.

I'm not sure why HN comments are so quick to make these extreme fear-mongering comparisons. Just yesterday I saw a top comment comparing Youtube removing a video to Chinese censorship...

[Hoasi]

Information wants to be free.

If free speech is paramount to democracy, we shouldn't discriminate. Most people understand there is an information war at play. Most people know that information is either propaganda or carries an agenda. If you cut one opponent's voice, then it's not balanced. Why shouldn't we defend the right for Russian media to promote their narrative? Besides, legitimate, unrelated stories from one perspective also end up ignored.

Censoring Russian media only further isolates Russia, which is counterproductive. That also further separates the world from Russia and understanding regular Russian people.

Last, there is the argument that understanding the Russian state is also critical at times like these. You can also read intent between the lines. Understanding the current opinion of those in power in that part of the world is of the essence.

[ehsankia]

Again, I see sites like reddit and Youtube as megaphones. Not being on them doesn't stop your freedom to speech. Information was is also asymmetric, it takes a fraction the effort and time to spread lies and propaganda, than it takes to fact check and correct it. So especially when the people spreading lies have a lot to gain (many are making a ton of money spreading lies that get clicks), I absolutely don't believe such voice should be given a "platform". They are perfectly free to spread their own speech by themselves, but they are not entitled to free amplification and spread from Youtube or Twitter.

[8note]

Democracy discriminates based on citizenship, so discriminating free speech based on citizenship makes a clear match.

[TMWNN]

>Being blocked from sharing Russian-owned content is absolutely nothing like being cut off from the internet or information. At best it's limiting the spread of Russian-owned content.

I am reading Clark's Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia (<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002RI9PMM/>). Right after hearing about YouTube shutting down Russian state media channels, I was surprised to learn in the book of the extent of the freedom of the press in late 18th-century Prussia. A British visitor wrote that people were as free to speak as back home, citing a work that was very critical of the king in the context of Poland. During the Napoleonic wars, despite the existential threat to Prussia from France, at least four newspapers that celebrated Revolutionary France as the next step in human freedom were allowed to publish.

It's always preferable to counter propaganda with free speech. Even liars deserve the opportunity to speak. This is especially true when there is no formally declared war between the US and Russia.

[ehsankia]

> It's always preferable to counter propaganda with free speech

Except the past few years have shown that not only does not work in practice, it can actually lead to people dying and democracy breaking.

The reality is that a lie takes a fraction of the effort than it takes to counter said lie. People can post dozens of blatant lie about vaccines and COVID on youtube in the time it takes people to fact check and counter a single one. The information war is asymmetric, especially when people can get rich from spreading lies which get clicks and attention.

[remram]

I am mostly criticizing the move from Cogent, triggered by an EU directive. Reddit's is not that impactful, but it does appear to go in the same direction.

[unicornporn]

Exactly.

If every Russian can see what an inconvenience it is to have Putin as a leader the hope is that they will be more inclined to do everything in their power to have him replaced. Some will of course just blame "west", but there will also be those who will come to question power.

[OrlandoHakim]

Or, as happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, these actions could further radicalize an entire population.

I think it is safe to assume that if the west applies broad and indiscriminate sanctions that devastate the lives of everyday Russians, many/most are more likely to blame the west who directly imposed the sanctions rather than their own government who will very likely use propaganda to convince them to hate their western oppressors.

It is similar, in my opinion, to the broader Islamic radicalization that occurred after 9/11 when the US employed extraordinary rendition and enhanced interrogation techniques rather indiscriminately on both known terrorists and suspects captured without charge or due process/fair-trial.

Have you considered the risk that these actions could strengthen Putin’s grip on power and provide justification to the Russian people to escalate conflict further?

I gleaned this hypothesis From a recent Joe Rohan Podcast episode with Maajid Awaz, a former Islamic radical, who turned away from radical Islam and helped educate western leaders how to de-radicalize extremists after 9/11. [0]

[0] https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ugbn7cuab3mNgKbo81ajM?si=N...

[root_axis]

It certainly applies political pressure with respect to the current war, but it seems absurd to suggest that Russian citizens will replace Putin because of inconveniences on the internet.

[unicornporn]

It's not just "the internet" (and I think you get that). The point is that these inconveniences penetrate every aspect of your daily life.

[Terry_Roll]

Putin is just another US led Egyptian uprising.

I wonder if this (\u202E) would work for Russians, anyone tried? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30351968

[WillPostForFood]

>and then we cut Russia from the Internet on our side

This isn’t a good example of cutting Russia from the internet - Reddit is allowing Russians access to Reddit, and they can post on Reddit, they are just blocking links to Russian sites. That’s perhaps I’ll advised, and too blunt an attempt to slow disinformation, but it is not cutting Russian citizens off.

[netcan]

I disagree.

"Cutting off" means all sorts of things. Blocking russian sites from being posted is a form of cutting off.

"Too blunt an attempt to slow disinformation" is, IMO, bordering on euphemism. The increasingly enthusiastic swinging of blunt weapons has already made a terrible mess. Once the war misinformation game matures to where the Trump election or covid misinformation game has already matured to...

This week Youtube shut down an actual news channel that aired a Trump election statements in the process of reporting on it. Airing pro-regime Russian media will likely be next, in some fashion.

Yesterday, I caught up with a Russian friend of mine. He had complex views Ukraine, Putin & such two weeks ago. His views are no longer complex. He's squarely anti-Putin, anti-regime and considers Zelenski and the Ukrainian fighters heroic with no caveats. Obviously, the invasion itself played a part forming his current views. But... the shuttering of nearly all free media outlets cinched it. Now that dissident opinions are literally illegal in Russia again, he's literally supporting the opposite side in a war. This man is a lifelong nationalist.

This fearful attitude towards misinformation is dangerous, far more dangerous than misinformation in my opinion. That does not mean misinformation is not real, not a problem or not something that needs action. It does mean that this is a bad decision by Reddit.

[root_axis]

> I get that Reddit don't want to be left out of the PR bandwagon

This is not good PR for reddit, whenever they make decisions like this the entire site erupts in revolt for a week or two. More likely, reddit thinks this is a good idea because it will reduce the spread of what the administrator's conider Russian disinformation. Acting to limit the spread of Russian disinformation has been a major effort for all the big social media sites since 2016, and this change seems inline with that pattern, just taken to an extreme that reflects the current extreme situation with Russia.

[xdennis]

You can't have free speech during a war.

There's no point in getting the local population to rise up because the vast majority of Russians are pro-Putin fascists. Even western poll show that they're pro-Putin.

The point is to quarantine Russia so that it doesn't infect us.

[sterlind]

have you like, actually talked to Russians? I have a number of ethnic Russian friends and I've been active on some Russian-language discords/subreddits. the ones I've talked to are aghast at this and blaming themselves for staying out of politics up until now.

there's selection bias since I'm finding Russians who are on Western social media platforms, but still, I don't think you can claim the "vast majority" are like this.

[fairity]

> the vast majority of Russians are pro-Putin

Source? The latest western polls show his approval rating in the high 60s but you have to significantly discount that bc 1) the perceived danger of speaking out against the govt skews responses towards approval 2) those polls were done before the Ukrainian crisis