[jen20]

> I think most of you aren't really engaging with the substance of my comment.

That is because it doesn’t have any.

The idea that NATO expansion caused Putin to be have in this manner is simply not a credible argument. The countries of Eastern Europe have the same right to self determination as those of Western Europe, the US or Russia itself. Being an apologist does not make you a substantive debater, it makes you a patsy.

[throckmortra]

Please don't sink to ad-hom on hackernews. Nowhere in my comment is apologia, merely context. Ukraine should be defended and helped in any of way we can (without causing nuclear war) not in spite of our history of saber-rattling, but because of it. It is now our responsibility to clean up a mess that we are partially to blame for. People far more intelligent and credible than both of us are making these arguments so I think you're going to need something a bit stronger than sticking your fingers in your ears