[grog454]

What system do you envision for bringing awareness of your product to new customers? Or do you just mean traditional advertisement and not marketing in general (ex: paid or incentivized product reviews).

From the advertiser's perspective, if I can spend $x to acquire a user with an LTV (lifetime value) of $y, and $x < $y, why would I not? How would you prevent it?

I like to think that I'm immune to advertising, and I suspect a lot of people here think that way too, but the bottom line is that it does work well enough on enough people to yield a positive ROI in many, many situations.

[chowells]

Why do you think your new product deserves customer awareness? Why is it so important to impose yourself upon the awareness of others? How is doing that with a goal of acquiring money even slightly morally acceptable?

[fshbbdssbbgdd]

If I figured out how to do something for $1 and it provides $3 worth of utility, how is it immoral to pay some money to inform people so they can get that $2 of extra utility in their lives by making that trade? As far as I’m concerned, stopping me from running that ad is morally equivalent to destroying the mail sorting machines at USPS.

[chowells]

You don't need advertising if you have a useful product. You only need discoverability.

Advertising is an industry of mental pollution. It exists explicitly to convincing people they need to buy a product. If they don't know they need to buy it without being convinced, they don't actually need to buy it.

It is literally not worth $2 to me to have your junk injected into my brain. This isn't personal of course. I don't even know how useless your junk is. But the fact is, if you're selling a thing, I don't need it. I have more things than I need. I need less. I'd pay $2 to not own your thing specifically because I don't want more things. And that's not even getting into the real issues with advertising.

Advertising is a lot more than your argument claims. It isn't just notification of a product's existence. Advertising is specifically convincing people to buy your thing. Maybe informing people of your product's existence will get some sales. But you'll get a lot more sales if you convince people they want your product. And you'll succeed at that a lot more easily if you attack statistical psychological weaknesses than if you just list product features. This isn't an accident, and it isn't going off the rails. It's what advertising will always become, because it's effective.

Your argument is along the lines of "well I won't abuse it." That's completely irrelevant, unless you're the only person allowed to advertise in the whole world. It really doesn't matter what your goals are. It matters what the effect of the policies you recommend are, and advertising has well-documented negative societal impact. As long as you don't engage with the actual problems with advertising in your arguments, your arguments aren't addressing my point.

If you actually want to address my point, tell me how you can fix the negative societal impact while still allowing advertising.

[grog454]

It might be worth defining your point in more detail. Here's the spectrum as I see it with examples, from most invasive to least. I'm curious where you (and others) draw the line.

- TV / streaming ads that fully disrupt your content.

- Interstitial / popup ads that let you close them after some amount of time.

- Interstitial / popup ads that let you close them immediately.

- Banner ads that try to emulate your content. Ex: Sponsored search results that are specified as ads. Product placements in movies.

- Banner ads that clutter and introduce noise to your content but don't disrupt it directly. Ex: web banners, sports stadium billboards, highway billboards, store front signs, guidance signs ("yard sale down the block"), brand logos on products (esp. on athletes), "temporary" sale notifications.

- Subversive ads masquerading as content: UNDISCLOSED sponsored product reviews

- Ads masquerading as content: DISCLOSED sponsored product reviews

- Unintentional ads: genuine, un-incentivized product reviews. Answering your friend's question "what IDE do you use for X?".

- Indifferent and unconscious ads: your choice to use a product in public and not try to conceal that use.

Almost no one is going to argue against the first few being a net negative, and almost no one is going to argue that the last one is even worth thinking about. So where do you draw the line?

> I'd pay $2 to not own your thing specifically because I don't want more things.

You can do exactly that in many cases. Youtube Premium. Hulu tiers. I'm curious how many people nod at that quoted statement but don't actually do it. It's an easy choice for me to do it because I want to support content creators and the opportunity cost of my time is way higher than what these features cost.

Full Disclosure: My F2P multiplayer games get 75-90% of their revenue from advertisements, and most of that is interstitials. Whenever possible, I configure and experiment with close timers to find the right balance of UX and revenue. If I didn't have ads in my games, they would not feasibly exist. Unlike your home internet, most hosting providers charge per byte of data transfer.

That said, I also offer an ad removal in app purchase at a net loss to me. It's a net loss because what typically happens is players who spend the most time in the game are the ones that are significantly more likely to buy it. But the players who spend the most time in the game are also the ones who would be seeing the most ads if they didn't buy it. They are also producing the most data transfer (ie cost to me).

[chowells]

My criteria for acceptable product testimonials:

1. It's truthful.

2. It's about the product itself, not about how it could change your life.

3. There's no monetary consideration for it - not even the product being provided at a discount or free.

Your last two examples are the ones that are on the right side of all of those lines.

And yes, I pay for youtube premium and twitch turbo. Doing so improved the quality of those services immensely.

[Razengan]

It is immoral and asshole’ish of you to waste my time and resources (bandwidth, physical space etc.) without my consent.

Tell me: Why is “spam” considered undesirable? Would you disable the spam filter of your email etc.?

All advertisement is spam, just that the ads we see have paid to be not counted as spam.

[Razengan]

> What system do you envision for bringing awareness of your product to new customers?

Directories, with extensive search and filtering and opt-in recommendation systems. Powered by ML or what have you.

Personally, as a consumer who is always looking for new shit to spend my money on, I have yet to see any ad that showed me something I actually liked or purchased.

Some of the best things I have discovered have been through word-of-mouth, manual searching or sheer luck. For example the GamingSuggestions sub on Reddit. (Please don’t ruin it with subversive marketing if any of you adholes are thinking of that)

Sadly almost every major market platform actively hinders and cripples their search and filter features, except maybe Steam. I don’t know why. Maybe they are afraid of competitors combing through their data?

I search for X and I get almost completely unrelated results, often paid ads hijacking the search terms.

Why is it so hard to search for, for example, an iPhone 12 Mini Red with 64 GB, and not see results for any other models, Samsung, or cases and other accessories and shit?

Worse, as-based systems vary by region. So even if I’m often searching for anime and manga, Google can’t seem to infer that I would like to see such results near the top when searching for related things, unless my IP is from Japan.

Just. Stop. Guessing.

I literally told you what I am looking for to spend money on, so only show me that, until I specifically request other similar products.