[oldcigarette]

So are we at the point where we deny the Nuland thing every happened? None of this happened under the foreign policy of Trump. I support Ukrainian self determination but this is not what happened and even if it is it is not how Russia perceives which seems entirely reasonable.

[RealityVoid]

I think Russian motivation works completely different than the way you believe it works. Assigning perfect rationality all the time is a mistake, and misses what I believe is Putin's motivation, recreating Russia as a regional power, and bringing back the old USSR satellites. It's a matter of pride and feelings of offended national pride are a dime a dozen in Eastern Europe.

[oldcigarette]

>bringing back the old USSR satellites

This is basically equivalent to saying Putin is retarded because there is no way they can pull this off. Putin has acted exactly how he said he would act since at least 2008 when NATO membership was proposed. I'm inclined to believe the words of someone who acts consistently with them rather than your literal bandwagon fallacy.

[RealityVoid]

Putin _is_ consistent, but not with his words but with his actions. He is not thinking in the short term, but in the long term, how can he make Russia a bigger player on the world stage. I repeat, assigning perfect reason to Putin is a mistake, he's driven by ideas that override immediate pragmatism.

His claims of NATO security threats are a veil, a lie. I think this post sells it quite well: https://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense/comments/t2mb0c/the...