[frobozz]

MAD is the same concept as "an armed society is a polite society"

I don't like either idea. Being civil to one another simply because the other party might respond with incredibly disproportionate violence is not a civilised way to live.

[mgfist]

They're quite different actually. A gun does not guarantee MAD. Hence why the invention of firearms did not end wars.

If I had a gun and you had a gun, I can kill you with said gun before you fire your weapon. That's not the case with nukes. With nukes, I see that you've fired yours, so I will fire mine. And due to the amount of nukes owned by the world, we know that said firing of all nukes will lead to the destruction of most if not all life on earth.

> Being civil to one another simply because the other party might respond with incredibly disproportionate violence is not a civilised way to live

Nature doesn't care about civility. Don't let the means get in the way of results. The world has been much more peaceful since the invention of nuclear weapons. In any case, we can't put the genie back in the bottle. We have no choice but to live with it.

[bluefirebrand]

What is the alternative? If I have a gun and you aren't armed, your only hope for a peaceful life is that I choose to leave you alone. If I choose to enslave you, abuse you, or kill you, what could you reasonably do about it at that point?

Nuclear weapons are the same. It would be irresponsible to disarm fully while you have enemies that seek to take advantage of you.

Making appeals to what is "civilized" or not is just fluff, it means nothing. At one point in "civilized" society people would duel to the death over insults.

[jjoonathan]

Disarming and then getting rolled when your counterparty takes advantage isn't a civilized way to live. See: Ukraine.

[flyinglizard]

What we call "civilization" is always founded on a threat of using force. Even in a primitive tribal society with nothing but spears, you keep in line with the tribe for fear of retaliation.

[cracrecry]

All civilizations have grown by incredible disproportionate violence and conquest.

China and Persia old empires, Greek, Egypt, Roman Empire, The Muslim expansion. In America the Incas and Mayas. The Spanish Empire, then the French and British. Then the American Empire.

The only exception to that have been the Phoenicians, then Carthage, that started as pacific merchants, but they were forced into war by the Romans.

[MattGaiser]

But we cannot be blind to the reality that there are people who only behave because of coercion.