[jd115]

Here's my take on this, which you are not going to like one bit. It goes like this...

The good people of Russia - and I'm not saying this with a tongue in cheek - the vast majority of the people of Russia truly are GOOD people, in the simplest, most sincere sense of the word... But they do need to go through some things.

You just don't get to support a murderous communist regime for 100 years and then say "but we had nothing to do with it". I'm sorry, but you had everything to do with it.

[swat535]

You clearly have no idea what it's like to live under a dictatorship.

Well I do sir, I lived under the Islamic Republic of Iran for half my life.

If you think people can just "rise up", protest and overthrow the government, then you are clueless. Dictators will not hesitate to fire live rounds at their own people, they will torture and imprison everyone, cut all communication from outside and spew propaganda 24/7 to keep people in the dark.

Further, you don't even need to look far in history to see what happens if people do indeed "rise up", it happened in Syria [0] with the Arab spring and the civil war has been going on for over a decade now. It has basically turned the country into dust and it has been made inhabitable, if you don't believe me checkout "For Sama" [1]

So no, I don't blame the ordinary Russian civilians. My prayers go out to the people of Ukraine AND Russia right now.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war [1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9617456/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_3

[orloffm]

You probably are from some eastern european country and now are just happy to spit poison at us. The amount of devastation bolsheviks caused in 20-30s, two insane wars, complete cultural destruction, what else should people go through?

[Ambolia]

The Clintons selling Russia to oligarchs in the 90s and causing a drop in life-expectancy of 10 years in the male population

[adriancr]

> The Clintons selling Russia to oligarchs in the 90s

How did that happen?, Did they own Russia or something?

[Ambolia]

Their administration with the "help" of harvard helped to produce the economic "success" that was 90s russia:

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/harvard-boys-do-ru...

[adriancr]

Hold on... Which administration?, did the Clinton's rule in Russia?

Even your article says the Russian Administration did this.

If I were to look at who's rich right now it's Putin and his accolade... so it seems they plundered and stole and destroyed everything.

[didymospl]

Exactly. But this is because many Russians don't understand the concept of agency when it comes to nations. Plus, they think their motherland is the best place on earth. This even applies to the highly-educated individuals e.g. during the war in Donbas in 2014, I had some Russian-born expats coworkers who were genuinely convinced that a) both NATO and EU enlargements in Eastern Europe were CIA's ploys, against "common people will" and b) Russia had nothing to do with that war, it was just people rioting against Ukraine's pro-western politics.

[Yoric]

Oh, please, let's not start blaming most Russians.

These sanctions are about ruining the Russian war machine, as well as demonstrating to other authoritarian governments tempted by imperialism that attacking democracies is a bad idea. Individual Russians (with the exception of oligarchs) are collateral damage. And despite the fact that Russians are (probably) going to suffer deeply for it, it's (probably) the right way to do it, because any other strategy (that I can think of) involves either nuclear bombs falling sooner or later.

Of course, if Russians somehow manage to reinstate democracy in their country, that will be the best outcome. But don't count on it, revolutions are hard and deadly.

[CRConrad]

> Oh, please, let's not start blaming most Russians.

Any regime can only stay in power as long as it has the support, active or passive, of a majority of its people. (That's why the German people was held collectively responsible for having abided the Nazi regime, and had to go through collective de-Nazification after WW2.) The fact that, with the exception of short periods of anarchy (most recently: the 1990s), Russia has had authoritarian-to-dictatorial regimes since... Well, since about forever, means that the Russian people has been condoning authoritarian-to-dictatorial regimes since about forever.

High time for a change in that, isn't it? And whom should that be up to... If not the Russian people?

> if Russians somehow manage to reinstate democracy in their country

I think you mean instate democracy, without the re-.

[Yoric]

Have you ever been risked your life and that of your family by being part of a revolutionary movement?

I haven't. I don't know that I would if I lived in a dictatorship. I'm not going to start blaming people because they haven't either.

[CRConrad]

Sure, they may have, from their viewpoint, valid reasons not to do anything about it. And sure, I couldn't swear that I would do any better in their situation. But: So what? Still doesn't mean it's not their fault, just like it would be mine in the same situation. The two are not logically related.

[Yoric]

Victim blaming? I'm not a fan.

[CRConrad]

The victims here are the Ukrainians; the Russians are the aggressors.

What you're not a fan of is aggressor-blaming. To most of the rest of us, the aggressors are precisely the ones who should take the blame.

[darawk]

I don't entirely disagree but I think a slightly better framing is: It's not their fault, but it is their responsibility. Putin is a problem for the world, and it's a problem that can only be properly solved by the Russian people. Unfortunately, that means whether they deserve it or not, they are the group to whom pressure needs to be applied.

[orloffm]

I am a Russian citizen. How it is my responsibility? I never supported Putin and hate him as much as anyone. They destroyed Moscow over the last 20 years, gave up on Russians left in former ex-USSR countries, created a separate society of asian immigrants, muted all opposition. How am I responsible? Should I buy a tank of gazoline and go burn Kremlin? Then what? Is every european responsible for not stopping NATO in the middle east? What pressure should be applied to some Dutch for that?

[darawk]

> How am I responsible? Should I buy a tank of gazoline and go burn Kremlin?

Honestly, yes. If that's what it takes. You're responsible not because it's your fault, but because you (collectively) are the ones in a position to do something about it.

[rmind]

Were German people responsible for Nazis? Russians have been figting Nazis so fiercly during the World War 2 and it is so ironic that they have a Nazis in Kremlin now.. with many supporting them or just doing nothing about it.

[KptMarchewa]

You're living in a modern life Nazi Germany. If you're good, get out via Dubai or other neutral country.

[cutemonster]

> How it is my responsibility?

He might mean that since you live there, you have better chances to do something about Putin, than people outside. And you might know more about what makes sense or not.

Just as if you're inside a house burning down, you're in a better position to do something about it (say, saving a kid who had hid in a closet), that someone far away.

Although none of it was your fault

[jd115]

And if you're still "but, but, butt-ing" about this, I'd like to add one more thing.

It is not Putin driving the tanks. It isn't him shelling hospitals and nurseries. It isn't him giving commands to troops. It isn't him spewing brain-dead propaganda in RU media 24/7 for decades.

I really honestly don't want to hear any "but"s from "the people".

You reap what you sow.

So you're scared? You say "if I don't go kill innocent people, Putin will kill me". And what's the choice you make? You go kill innocent people.

Enough with the buts.

Nothing but humble pie for the people of Russia over the next 100 years. Make Germans feel like they got away with it easy.

[thablackbull]

> You just don't get to support a murderous communist regime for 100 years and then say "but we had nothing to do with it".

If that argument holds (which I'm not saying it doesn't), then how much more responsible are we who have democracy and tell everyone else how great it is we have a say in how our government operates. Surely, we then hold even more of the blame on issues such as the WMD fiasco. Ironically, ask any one of us about these issues and suddenly its, we have no control over the government, and other endless excuses.

[ncallaway]

> then how much more responsible are we who have democracy

We who have democracy are very responsible for how our Government behaves.

> Surely, we then hold even more of the blame on issues such as the WMD fiasco.

Yes. The average US citizen bears responsibility for the lies of our government that lead to decades of warfare.

I was in high school at the time, strongly opposed Bush, and strongly opposed the war in Iraq. Even so, I bear some of the responsibility for my government's actions.

That's how it is.

[jd115]

Good point. Well worth thinking about.

[CRConrad]

No, it's stupid whataboutism.

[Cthulhu_]

Who says they supported it? What can "the people" do if elections are fraudulent, constitutions are changed, and any protests are beaten down by police? How many people have been arrested and disappeared for protesting against the invasion?

I mean, even in the US protesters managed to break into Congress, some with the intent to kill. If they were armed things would look very different now. What would have happened if Trump - who looks up to Putin - did things like declare martial law or change the constitution? It would have been possible; he put a new supreme judge in place, and 'his' party held a majority in the various houses. But that assumes a democratic process; if he had more cronies, he wouldn't need to follow a democratic process to become a dictator, only the pretense thereof.

[CRConrad]

> What can "the people" do if elections are fraudulent, constitutions are changed, and any protests are beaten down by police?

Oh, I don't know... Wait, ever heard of something called a revolution?

[yazaddaruvala]

“No country was born a democracy”

The Russian people really can impact change in their country and now is the best time. They just need to find a way to be united about stopping Putin.

Many more Russians will likely die, but sadly that’s always been the cost of building a democracy. I would have much rather preferred a world that wasn’t so brutal to achieve something so critical.

[alephnan]

> You just don't get to support a murderous communist regime for 100 years and then say "but we had nothing to do with it". I'm sorry, but you had everything to do with it.

This is easy to say when you have the privilege of living in a rich/developed country with free access to information and where you can increasingly voice your opinion without risking imprisonment or worst. Most people, especially in developing countries, are struggling to make ends meet and don't have time for ideology. The one that are very ideologically opposed and have done something about it have already sought asylum abroad.

The same argument can be made about America's multi century history of slavery, and only in recent decades have taken shape. People will wait for 50 acres and a mule in perpetuity

[ihateolives]

> Most people, especially in developing countries, are struggling to make ends meet and don't have time for ideology.

Most people in developing countries also do not have a lunatic with their finger on nuclear button. Russia currently does. If people don't see the need for ideology right now then we're all properly fucked, not matter on which side of the border you live. This time it's not like all the other times.

[rightbyte]

> If people don't see the need for ideology right now then we're all properly fucked

I believe we need to opposite. Cold hearted real politics going for deescalation. Screw right and wrong and ideology. There is way too much emotions now and I am getting scared for real ...

[KptMarchewa]

And, you know, good people of US eventually waged a civil war with slave owners. They could perpetually look the other way.

[gghhzzgghhzz]

"You just don't get to support a murderous communist regime for 100 years and then say "but we had nothing to do with it"."

The soviet regime is long gone, but with reference to the current regime.

It's been put there and supported by the West. In the shock treatment of the economy, the giving away of the state to an oligarchy and to contracts to western companies, the US and CIA support of Yeltsin up to and including fixing an election against the communists, the support for Putin's first election, the turning a blind eye to what was happening in Chechnya and then Georgia, the expansion of NATO against all advice that it would create and embolden nationalist chauvinistic leadership, the encouragement and protection of the oligarchy class in western countries, the addiction to fossil fuel.

[jd115]

If you make a distinction between soviet regime and current regime, I'm sorry, but I can't spend another second reading further into any other noise coming out of your keyboard.

[jd115]

Sorry, couldn't resist... Read the rest of your garbage. So wait, so... Putin is a western ploy? Well fuck my ignorance!

[cracrecry]

You should learn History before you talk.

There was a civil war in Russia. The Bolshevism won being a minority because they got support from Germany Government in a critical weakness situation of World War.

I bet you can't even understand that from a privileged position on the West, fell fed and well rested.

I have been in Africa helping kids that eat once a day and they are so weak they can't think clearly for long. The same happened in Russia when people almost starved under the civil war and later with the disastrous Lenin politics. Only Lenin people had enough food, stolen from the people, most people were hungry.

Lenin killed 300.000 Russian peasants and 5 million people starved. Russian people were the main victims of communism. Even the navy revolted against Lenin and he was forced to do NEP. With Stalin it got worse.

And small owners of land, specially in Ukraine were exterminated. Anyone that was better at something(kulaks) was exterminated. Any social institution like Church was destroyed.

Given the right circumstances this could happen too in America.

[CRConrad]

And who condoned that all; who actually put Lenin in power (and spare us the "Germany Government" crap), and then did not put neither him nor his equally-or-more dictatorial successors out of it again after they noticed that the results were shit?

The Russian people, that's who. Any regime that is tolerated by its people is always and everywhere the responsibility of that people. Whose the Hell else could it even be?!?

And this is so fucking self-evident that even trying to argue against it seems a surefire sign of advanced lunacy.